Re: [Harp-L] Re: Reed Stress and Temperature

[Mike Wilbur <mike@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

 Generally agree Pat, Brass, Bronze and Copper Alloys  would be much more brittle at low temps
and more responsive/ bendable at higher temps.



Mike Wilbur


> On Sep 23, 2014, at 3:21 PM, patpowers <patpowers@xxxxxxx> wrote:
> 
> Agreed, the amplitude is not affected by temperature.  However, the pliability of the reed material is, and a cold reed will break easier than a warm one.  If you'd like to test this, take 2 identical strips of metal, or any normally pliable material really (2 plastic spoons will do), and put one in the freezer overnight. Then clamp them both in a vise and bend them back and forth until one breaks. I think you will find the warm material will bend easier, spring back better, and last longer than the refrigerated material. Chances are the refrigerated strip/spoon will break easily.    
> 
> And, maybe it's just my technique (or lack thereof), but I tend to blow and draw harder when bending notes.  The amplitude of the audio signal may not change, but the pressure differential definitely does. I'm not sure of the exact physics involved; the interaction with the other reed in the slot, etc... but I can say with certainty that I've never damaged a reed while play straight notes, only when bending them, and the notes that I bend the most are the reeds that fail first, so the evidence supports that bending notes (at least the way I bend them) stresses the reeds more.  I would be interested in some Finite Element Analysis on the subject, though, as I think multiple factors would play into the stress equation; signal amplitude, differential pressure, temperature, humidity, frequency, harmonic distortion, etc...  We could really deep dive into this, or just postulate that bending notes stresses reeds more, and argue the temperature effect on reed longevity.  I say cold!
>  reeds break easier.
> 
> Thanks for the debate. ;)
> 
> Keep Harpin'!
> Pat Powers
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Vern" <jevern@xxxxxxx>
> To: "patpowers" <patpowers@xxxxxxx>
> Cc: "Larry Sandy" <slyou65@xxxxxxxxx>, harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx
> Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 1:01:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [Harp-L] Re: Harp-L Digest, Vol 133, Issue 22
> 
> The stress in a reed is a function of the amplitude of its vibration. This amplitude is affected by the pressure difference across the reed.   Do you know of any reason that a cold reed would vibrate at a greater amplitude than a warmer one? Do you blow/draw harder when the harp is cold?
> 
> Do you know that a âdeep bendâ causes either reed to vibrate at a greater amplitude?  You may be making the unwarranted assumption that the greater effort that the player must use to bend is felt by the reed.
> 
> Vern
> 
>> On Sep 23, 2014, at 6:22 AM, patpowers <patpowers@xxxxxxx> wrote:
>> 
>> Thanks guys - that is some really cool information!  But, please note (yes, pun intended again) that my recommendation had nothing to do with pitch, and was simply to reduce the risk of over-stressing the reeds.  I would not recommend grabbing a cold harp out of the case and immediately start doing deep bends on it.
>> 
>> Keep Harpin'!
>> Pat Powers
>> 
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Vern" <jevern@xxxxxxx>
>> To: "Larry Sandy" <slyou65@xxxxxxxxx>
>> Cc: patpowers@xxxxxxx, harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 5:18:33 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Harp-L] Re: Harp-L Digest, Vol 133, Issue 22
>> 
>> If you cooled a brass reed by 20 degF, its pitch would INCREASE by about 1 centâ.imperceptible among the other variables affecting pitch.  (derived from the chart at http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/young-modulus-d_773.html ) Note that E (modulus of elasticity) decreases with increasing temperature and that pitch is proportional to the square root of E.  
>> 
>> If the pitch is decreased by moisture on the reed, the effects would tend to cancel.
>> 
>> Vern
>> 
>>> On Sep 22, 2014, at 5:36 PM, Larry Sandy <slyou65@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Pat, that's interesting.  I have never heard that cold reeds are less flexible. That must translate into them playing a LITTLE FLAT until they warm up. I know cold reeds collect breath moisture quickly though, which would also lower the pitch. Interesting parallel.  I wonder if cold, moist reeds are double flat?  ð<br/><br/>Lockjaw Larry
> 
>