Re: [Harp-L] swingin 16ths

Michael Rubin <michaelrubinharmonica@xxxxxxxxx> · Fri, 4 Apr 2014 11:20:44 -0500

Jon Kip copy and pasted my explanation of swung 8ths.  Then he said:

"Lots of people can swing, and NONE of them learned it by reading words.
Words will not work."

I am not sure if he was pointing this only at me, because lots of us were
using words to explain swing eight notes.   It feels like he is arguing
with me.

First off, John, I want to say I generally love your posts and feel like
you are miles ahead of me on the same path.  I have recently begun
transcribing and playing jazz solos note for note in an effort learn to
play jazz from by ear and not by theory.  I have spent lots of time
learning jazz theory and my jazz solos sound in tune, but don't have the
feeling of real jazz.  I spent years transcribing blues solos and I like
the way I play blues, so I thought I would apply the same concept to jazz.
I feel you are really doing great work on your jazz studies and want to
work with you whenever we meet.

But I have disagreement with your statement.

Although I definitely agree that many people learn to swing by listening
and imitation, I feel it is a sweeping generalization to say everyone
learned that way. Obviously you have not interviewed every swinging
musician.

I believe many people had the concept described to them in words.  Then
they were able to understand the basic concept and when listening were able
to hear a swung 16th note and say, "Hey that sounds like a swung 16th
note.  If I focus on listening and imitating this part of the song,  I'll
get better at swung 16ths."  But without the original worded description,
they would not get to that point.

Next, I believe you are very close to prescribing the "Just feel it, man"
method of education.  I have gone to a lot of music seminars and taken lots
of private lessons and been on the receiving end of the "Just feel it,
man." method from my teachers, and watched others receive the same
treatment.

It always makes me feel as they are condescending to me.  Why can't you
just get it?  Everyone else can.  Well, if I could just get it, I wouldn't
be going to a teacher.  In fact when I receive the "Just feel it, man"
speech once too often, I find another teacher.

You also said,

"Some people never get it"

As a teacher, I cannot accept this answer.  I believe different people
learn differently and it is my job to find how that particular person
learns.  I have taught many people to swing by playing and having them
imitate and many by using words.

Personally, on an internet forum that mostly uses typed words for
communication, I find words to be one of the best methods of getting an
idea across.
Michael Rubin
michaelrubinharmonica.com

On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 4:47 PM, Winslow Yerxa <winslowyerxa@xxxxxxxxx>wrote:

> Good point, Arthur. Funk often divides the beat into 4 and then swings the
> divisions in pairs of 2+2. This si audible at medium tempos
>
> Swing has to happen at a certain level of the beat or beat division. Jazz
> swings the divisions of the beat itself, though it can also divide the beat
> other ways (16th, explicit triplets, etc.). If the divisions of the beat
> become liquid, swinging at a lower level of division is like subdividing
> water.
>
> But if you divide the beat in 4 and then swing paris from that 4, you have
> a stable base to work from.
>
> Winslow Yerxa
> President, SPAH, the Society for the Preservation and Advancement of the
> Harmonica
> Producer, the Spring 2014 Harmonica Collective
> Author, Harmonica For Dummies, ISBN 978-0-470-33729-5
>             Harmonica Basics For Dummies, ASIN B005KIYPFS
>             Blues Harmonica For Dummies, ISBN 978-1-1182-5269-7
> Resident Expert, bluesharmonica.com
> Instructor, Jazzschool for Music Study and Performance
>
>
> ________________________________
>  From: Arthur Jennings <timeistight@xxxxxxxxx>
> To: Harp-L <harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx>
> Sent: Thursday, April 3, 2014 11:04 AM
> Subject: Re: [Harp-L] swingin 16ths
>
>
> I think a lot of Funk music is played with swung sixteenths. I don't think
> it uses swung eights, though.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 10:24 AM, Winslow Yerxa <winslowyerxa@xxxxxxxxx
> >wrote:
>
> > Good point, Jerome
> >
> > I remember hearing Stuff Smith take a violin solo on a Nat Cole record.
> He
> > played nothing but quarter notes on the beat, and it swung like hell!
> >
> > I've heard Louis Armstrong do the same thing. That famous video of him
> > singing and playing Dinah live in Copnhage in 1930-something has some
> > examples of that.
> >
> > Winslow
> >
> > Winslow Yerxa
> > President, SPAH, the Society for the Preservation and Advancement of the
> > Harmonica
> > Producer, the Spring 2014 Harmonica Collective
> > Author, Harmonica For Dummies, ISBN 978-0-470-33729-5
> >             Harmonica Basics For Dummies, ASIN B005KIYPFS
> >             Blues Harmonica For Dummies, ISBN 978-1-1182-5269-7
> > Resident Expert, bluesharmonica.com
> > Instructor, Jazzschool for Music Study and Performance
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> >  From: JersiMuse <jersimuse@xxxxxxxxx>
> > To: 'Boris Plotnikov' <ploboris@xxxxxxxxx>; 'Music Cal' <
> > macaroni9999@xxxxxxxxx>; harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx
> > Sent: Thursday, April 3, 2014 12:42 AM
> > Subject: RE: [Harp-L] swingin 16ths
> >
> >
> > Honestly, I'd be surprised if you could get any sense of swing that way.
> > In my (very) humble opinion, the only thing that creates swing is where
> you
> > put the accents.
> > Listen to actual jazz players : they swing, whereas most of them play
> > straight 8ths (and 16ths).
> > Once you got the right accents, you can begin to play more laid back. If
> > you
> > do the other way around (like a lot of harp players do, I have to admit),
> > you'll only have longer notes on the beat, but that does not create any
> > kind
> > of swing (to my opinion, this is a sort of urban legend).
> > Listen to Charlie Parker (just an example), slow down his 16ths, and
> you'll
> > hear that he puts his accents exactly the same way he does on 8ths.
> > Nothing changes but the celerity. I guess that's why he is a master :-)
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Jerome Peyrelevade
> > www.youtube.com/JersiMuse
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De : harp-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxx [mailto:harp-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxx] De la
> > part
> > de Boris Plotnikov
> > Envoyé : jeudi 3 avril 2014 08:50
> > À : Music Cal; harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx
> > Objet : Re: [Harp-L] swingin 16ths
> >
> > First step to swinging 16th is practicing sextoles, 6 notes per one
> > quarter.
> > Get a rather slow tempo (around 60-80) and play at least some notes in
> > sextoles, 1) by tonguing (ta-ki-ta-ta-ki-ta) or just 2) by changing notes
> > (e.g. cycle 4d 5b 5d 4d 5b 5d) or mix 3) 4d 4d 5b 5b 5d 5d or 4) roll 4d
> > 4db
> > 3d 4d 4db 3d. Feel the pulse, then omit 2-nd note and 4th note (make 1st
> > and
> > 3rd note longer) and you'll get swinging 16th.
> >
> >
> > 2014-04-03 9:29 GMT+04:00 Music Cal <macaroni9999@xxxxxxxxx>:
> >
> > > So I am guessing most players on this list know how to swing 8th notes
> > > to get the lilting laid back feeling so characteristic of jazz. But
> > > how do you (as in you) swing 16th notes? One could just "double time"
> > > the feel of the 8th note swing but IMO the result does not lilt. Or
> > > one could double time the eighth note feel for every other pair of
> > > 16th notes - has a better lilt IMO. So how do you do it? Or do you just
> > play 16th notes straight.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Thanks, Boris Plotnikov
> > http://borisplotnikov.ru
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Arthur Jennings
> http://www.timeistight.com
>