Re: [Harp-L] Re: Questions on Harp Positions

[Winslow Yerxa <winslowyerxa@xxxxxxxxx>]

See below for answers on different points.

--- Bob Cohen <bob@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> On Nov 17, 2007, at 12:28 PM, Winslow Yerxa wrote:
> 
> > The positions go around the cycle of fifths through the complete
> > chromatic scale, with each position a perfect 5th (7 semitones)
> higher
> > than the last.
> 
> Dear Winslow,
> 
> Every time I think I've got my hands around this, I find a bit of  
> information that further confuses me, in this case "circle of fifths,
>  
> which arranges the notes according to the number of sharps and flats 
> 
> each scale has.
> 
> Putting your explanation above into action to figure out positions  
> relative to a C harp, I drew a circle and put the chromatic scale  
> around it and counted five places, beginning with the note after C  
> (Db).  E.g., Db, D, Eb, E, F.  Doing so squared with what I've  
> memorized up to third position.  E.g.,
> 
> Key	Position
> ----	--------
> C	First
> F	Second
> Bb	Third
> Eb	Fourth
> Ab	Fifth
> Db	Sixth
> F#	Seventh
> B	Eight
> E	Ninth
> A	Tenth
> D	Eleventh
> G	Twelfth

You're going backwards. You need to go UP the circle (circle, cycle,
same thing for most discussions unless you want to get into Pythagorean
commas)

The positions then go like this, which is the common usage:

C Harp:

C     First
G     Second
D     Third
A     Fourth
E     Fifth
B     Sixth
F#/Gb Seventh
C#/Db Eighth
G#/Ab Ninth
D#/Eb Tenth
A#/Bb Eleventh
F     Twelfth


> 
> But then, there's the dratted "circle of fifths" which is laid out  
> clockwise as,
> 
> C, G, D, A, E, B F#(Gb), Db, Ab, Eb, Bb, F
> 
> According to my understanding, going clockwise from C to F#/Gb  
> increases the number of sharp notes by one and that going counter  
> clockwise from C to Gb(F#) increases the flatted notes by one.

True, but that has no direct bearing on positions. In Sixth Position on
a C Harp, F# Major, F# minor, and anything else with a tonality of F#,
regardless of the sharps or flats in the scale, is Sixth Position. F#
Locrian, where F# is the only non-natural note, would be sixth
position, for instance.

> 
> Where I'm confused is how the "circle" of fifths relates to the  
> "cycle" of fifths and figuring out positions.  And also with  
> intervals.  I (perhaps erroneously) understand that intervals include
>  
> the beginning note.  E.g., C D E F G is an interval of 5, which I  
> thought was a perfect fifth.
> 

That is correct. C-D-E-F-G, 1-2-3-4-5, is a fifth. In this case a
perfect fifth, which is what we use exclusively in the circle of fifths
used to determine harmonica positions.

If we used diminished or augmented fifths, we'd miss out on some of the
notes of the chromatic scale. For instance, if we were to follow B
(sixth position) by going up a diminished 5th to F and call that 7th
position and then after that go up a perfect fifth to C, we'd miss
having position names for Db, Eb, Gb, Ab, and Bb. And yes, it is
possible to use those positions musically on diatonic - just check out
Howard Levy's Out of the Box Vol. 1 DVD (I hear Volume 2 is in the
works).

> Are we talking about similar but slightly different graphic  
> representations to visualize positions vs. sharps and flats?  Or is  
> there a way to use the circle of fifths to figure out positions?  Or 
> 
> am I just missing something altogether?

You're on the right track but bringing in tangential issues that may be
confusing you. The number of sharps and flats in a key signature, for
instance, does not influence position because position is independent
of type of scale and even of enharmonic spelling.

On a C major harp, or even a C minor harp (for the sake of the
discussion, let's say it's a harp tuned like a regular C harp except
that E, A, and B have all been lowered a semitone), playing it in the
key of Bb Major will be 11th position. So will Bb minor and Bb blues.
And so will the key of A# because it is enharmonic with Bb (same note,
different spelling) and uses exactly the same notes even though they
may be spelled differently.

Winslow

> 
> Bob
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