[Harp-L] All this Positions and Modes stuff

Sat Oct 27 16:23:50 EDT 2018

Positions ?

So let's take real examples :
Let's pretend everything is played on a C harmonica to make it easier to compare

Little Walter - Juke :
Based on G major pentatonic scale develops into G mixolydian ideas and G minor blues pentatonic scale
I think we can agree that all traditional players will call this 2nd position

Little Walter - The Toddle
G minor all thru also called 2nd position

We could just add 100 examples but those will suffice
Right from this point you can see that positions refer to different things / colors
Using the G major pentatonic scale is one color, using the C major scale as a mixolydian mode is another color, using the G minor blues scale (which is also Bb major penta) is again another color

So why on earth would you want to call 3 different things the same ? They both have 3 different colors but most importantly you can use them to do create more colors
For instance you can play G minor penta over E7#9#9 +. Gives you a new color not listed above, over Cm9 another color, over  BbMaj7 another color and the list goes on ....

Alright now let's say you use this system to transpose what are you exactly transposing ???
Are you transposing G mixolydian on a C harp to E mixolydian on an A harp or are you transposing G minor penta to E minor penta or are you transposing G major penta on a C harp to E major penta on a A harp ?

>From this point on why not just learn each color as any other musician does on earth and call a cat a cat ?
If you have to improvise over Giant steps are you going to try to switch positions or are you going to use the chords / patterns,  scales (in conjunction with your ears) like any other jazz player ?

Music analysis on its own can be extremely controversial but a system just for harmonica players that can’t communicate with other musicians really ???

To conclude I'd say that music is already a language on its own that really doesn’t need so much analysis but if you're going to analyze it and use a system to explain it to others, understand how a composition / improvisation is made or communicate with other musicians why not use what everybody else is already using and make your life easier ?

David

-----Original Message-----
From: Harp-L <harp-l-bounces at xxxxx> On Behalf Of dh at xxxxx
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2018 12:25 PM
To: harp-l at xxxxx
Subject: Re: [Harp-L] All this Positions and Modes stuff

The day a harmonica player stops talking about positions he becomes a musician 😃

Seriously the problem with positions is that they refer to at least 2 different things How good is a system that gives the same name to at least 2 different colors ?
Would you teach your child that blue and red are the same position / color ?

2nd position is used to name songs / tunes / licks that are on a C harp :
G mixolydian (C major), G pentatonic blues (Bb major penta and to some extent Bb major)), G dorian (F Major), G aeolian (Bb major), G harmonic minor ... and so on If I play G half diminished on a G7 am I still playing in second position ??? !!!

Whereas each has its own sound / name / color in its own right

If you can hear the difference between F major and C major or G mixolydian and G dorian why would you call both the same ?
I never met a pianist / guitarist, drummer, singer ... who would talk about positions They would talk about chord progressions, bass lines, sometimes scales and modes but NEVER ... EVER about position (unless unrelated to the music world 😃)

Cheers,

David

-----Original Message-----
From: Harp-L <harp-l-bounces at xxxxx> On Behalf Of Laurent Vigouroux
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2018 11:37 AM
To: Michael Rubin <michaelrubinharmonica at xxxxx>; Aongus Mac Cana <amaccana at xxxxx>
Cc: harp-l <harp-l at xxxxx>
Subject: Re: [Harp-L] All this Positions and Modes stuff

Excellent explanation about the modes!

Regarding the positions, I'd say harmonica players would benefit from leaving it behind,  learning harmony and using a transposition concept: say for example that playing in C dorien on a Bb harp is equivalent to playing D dorian on a C harp. 
There is a tune in C dorian but I don't know the scale? I know well D dorian on a C harp? 
Ok I switch harps and it transposes naturally.

Saying Am on a C harp is 4th position or Em on a C harp is 5th doesn't really make sense. What minor are we referring to? Actually we are referring to modes (respectively aeolian and phrygian), which implies that we only consider the notes of C major. But all the notes are available on a C harp! 

I may sound picky and stupid, but I really think the concept of positions prevent lots of harmonica players from learning harmony and adventuring beyond the I7, IV7 and V7 chords. Even if one doesn't master the overblows, he would largely benefit from learning harmony and use the harp in the key that proposes the best sounding notes.

Of course, this is much less important for harpers who only play classic blues. For them, positions really are useful.

And anyway, everyone does what he likes (

Laurent

On 26/10/2018 18:56, "Michael Rubin"  wrote:

    1.  Yes and people do.  If you restrict yourself to a C chromatic. there is
    no need to do it, but if you own chromatics in multiple keys positions are
    the way to think.

    F can definitely be referred to as 1 flat.

    2.  Modes go much deeper than the white notes on a keyboard.

    Many people begin to think about modes by using the C major scale as a
    starting point.  The C major scale is all of the white notes on a keyboard
    from C to C.

    C D E F G A B C

    If you played it as is that would be the 1st mode of the C major scale.
    This is also known as the C major scale.

    If you played the same notes but began on D that would be the 2nd mode of
    the C major scale.

    D E F G A B C D

    This no longer sounds like Do re mi fa so la ti do.  It has its own
    feeling.  To get that feeling, the band has to be in the key of D.  (or
    over a D chord)

    There is more than one kind of music.  In general, songs can be categorized
    into three types of music, major, minor and bluesy.  Notice I did not say
    blues.  Led Zeppelin is not as bluesy as Muddy Waters, but they are a heck
    of a lot bluesier than John Denver.  Bluesy music can be subcategorized
    into two different types, major blues (think Let the Good Times Roll) and
    Minor Blues (Think The Thrill is Gone).  To get the feeling of the 2nd mode
    of the C major scale, the band NOT ONLY has to play in the key of D, but
    has to be playing the appropriate style of music. For example, if you
    played D E F G A B C D as you scale during a song in D major, it would not
    sound good.  BUT if you played in D minor (for example) it would sound good.

    Since there are seven distinct white notes, there are seven modes of the C
    major scale.

    Now let's look at the G major scale.

    G A B C D E F# G

    If you played it as is that would be the 1st mode of the G major scale.
    This is also known as the G major scale.

    The feeling you get from the 1st of mode of the C major scale when the song
    is is in C major is the SAME feeling you get from the 1st mode of the G
    major scale when the song is in G major.

    If you played the notes of the G major scale but began on A that would be
    the 2nd mode of the G major scale.

    A B C D E F# G A

    Notice this is a mode that has a black key in it.

    The feeling you get from the 2nd mode of the C major scale when the song is
    in D minor (the style of music is an example)  is the same feeling you get
    from the 2nd mode of the G major scale when the song is in A minor.

    So there are seven modes of EVERY major scale.  The feeling you get from
    the 1st mode of all 12 major scales is the same no matter the key.  The
    feeling you get from each mode of all 12 major scales is the same no matter
    the key.

    Here are the names of the seven modes of major scales and an explanation of
    the generally agreed upon feelings they create when in the key that shares
    their root.  Remember different people hear music differently and so a
    discussion of everyone's take on the feelings would be welcome:

    1.  Ionian aka the major scale.  Happy music.

    2. Dorian  works in minor music but it is important to know there is more
    than one type of minor song.  For certain types, Dorian sounds great, for
    others, not so much.  However, most listeners are very forgiving with minor
    harmony so don't worry too much.  Generally, if the IV chord is major,
    Dorian is a great choice.

    Dorian works in major blues.  That is not major songs and blues songs.
    That is blues songs that are major in quality.

    Dorian works in minor blues.  (although like I mentioned above, not ALL
    minor blues).

    3. Phrygian works in some chords during jazz songs.

    Phrygian works in middle eastern music, often.

    Phrygian works in flamenco music, often.

    4. Lydian works in some chords during jazz songs.

    Lydian works in creepy music in scary movies.

    There is a school of music where lydian is the main scale that all other
    musical ideas are built from, in the same way that most westerners base
    their ideas off of the major scale.

    5.  Mixoyldian sounds good in major blues.

    6.  Aeolian aka the natural minor scale, aka the relative minor scale.
    This is the main way Americans play minor music.  It does not work in all
    minor songs.

    7.  Locrian  works in some chords during jazz songs.

    Locrian works in creepy music in scary movies.

    It is good to realize we have only been considering the modes of major
    scales.

    Let's look at the C jazz melodic minor scale.

    C D Eb F G A  B C.

    There is only one black key.  Eb.

    Of all the major scales, only two contain only one black key:

    G A B C D E F# G

    and

    F G A Bb C D E F

    Neither of these major scales contain an Eb.  The G has an F#, otherwise
    known as Gb.  Gb is not Eb.  The F major scale has a Bb.  Bb is not Eb.

    Therefore the C jazz melodic minor scale is not a mode of any of the 12
    major scales.  It is unique and separate from the major scales.

    If I played the C jazz melodic minor scale starting on C

    C D Eb F G A B C

    I get the 1st mode of the C jazz melodic minor scale.

    If I played the C jazz melodic starting on D:

    D Eb F G A B C D

    I get the 2nd mode of the C jazz melodic minor scale.  To get its proper
    feeling, I would need to play in the key of D (or over a D chord) and
    during a song with the type of feeling that works with the second mode of
    the C jazz melodic minor.

    Therefore there are 7 modes of the C jazz melodic minor scale.

    So here is the important takeaway:

    There are as many modes as there are notes in all of the scales in the
    world.

    Sometimes when you are hearing someone play unusual music they have chosen
    a scale that is not a major scale and become very adept at one or more of
    its modes and have found places where it sounds good.

    For most people, we playing simpler music, blues, rock, pop, country,
    gospel, folk, punk, reggae.  We benefit most from Ionian, Dorian,
    Mixoyldian and Aeolian.  Becoming adept at these modes will enable you to
    participate in almost every song in these genres.

    Michael Rubin
    michaelrubinharmonica.com

    On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 9:27 AM Aongus Mac Cana <amaccana at xxxxx> wrote:

    > I have to admit that I know as much about music theory as "a dog knows
    > about
    > a wireless". However I am trying to pick it up on a "need to know" basis.
    >
    > Question #1:      Can you use the terms 1st 2nd and 3d positions for a
    > Chromatic harmonica?
    >
    > In other words on a C Chromatic is G 2nd D 3d. and A 4th. (and on a G
    > Chromatic would D be 2nd and A 3d.)
    >
    > Some Irish Trad players use the terms: 1 sharp 2 sharps and 3 sharps to
    > describe the keys of G,D. And A. With this system I guess F would be called
    > 1 flat?
    >
    > Question #2:      As regards modes are these simply defined by where you
    > start your scale on the piano keyboard while confining yourself to the
    > white
    > keys?
    >
    > Hoping that someone may indulge an ignoramus,
    >
    > Beannachtai
    >
    > Aongus Mac Cana
    >
    >