[Harp-L] All this Positions and Modes stuff
Wilbur Euler
dubyail@xxxxx
Fri Oct 26 14:51:41 EDT 2018
Thank you!
Sent from my iPad
> On Oct 26, 2018, at 11:25, <dh at xxxxx> <dh at xxxxx> wrote:
>
> The day a harmonica player stops talking about positions he becomes a musician 😃
>
>
> Seriously the problem with positions is that they refer to at least 2 different things
> How good is a system that gives the same name to at least 2 different colors ?
> Would you teach your child that blue and red are the same position / color ?
>
> 2nd position is used to name songs / tunes / licks that are on a C harp :
> G mixolydian (C major), G pentatonic blues (Bb major penta and to some extent Bb major)), G dorian (F Major), G aeolian (Bb major), G harmonic minor ... and so on
> If I play G half diminished on a G7 am I still playing in second position ??? !!!
>
> Whereas each has its own sound / name / color in its own right
>
> If you can hear the difference between F major and C major or G mixolydian and G dorian why would you call both the same ?
> I never met a pianist / guitarist, drummer, singer ... who would talk about positions
> They would talk about chord progressions, bass lines, sometimes scales and modes but NEVER ... EVER about position (unless unrelated to the music world 😃)
>
> Cheers,
>
> David
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Harp-L <harp-l-bounces at xxxxx> On Behalf Of Laurent Vigouroux
> Sent: Friday, October 26, 2018 11:37 AM
> To: Michael Rubin <michaelrubinharmonica at xxxxx>; Aongus Mac Cana <amaccana at xxxxx>
> Cc: harp-l <harp-l at xxxxx>
> Subject: Re: [Harp-L] All this Positions and Modes stuff
>
> Excellent explanation about the modes!
>
> Regarding the positions, I'd say harmonica players would benefit from leaving it behind, learning harmony and using a transposition concept: say for example that playing in C dorien on a Bb harp is equivalent to playing D dorian on a C harp.
> There is a tune in C dorian but I don't know the scale? I know well D dorian on a C harp?
> Ok I switch harps and it transposes naturally.
>
> Saying Am on a C harp is 4th position or Em on a C harp is 5th doesn't really make sense. What minor are we referring to? Actually we are referring to modes (respectively aeolian and phrygian), which implies that we only consider the notes of C major. But all the notes are available on a C harp!
>
> I may sound picky and stupid, but I really think the concept of positions prevent lots of harmonica players from learning harmony and adventuring beyond the I7, IV7 and V7 chords. Even if one doesn't master the overblows, he would largely benefit from learning harmony and use the harp in the key that proposes the best sounding notes.
>
> Of course, this is much less important for harpers who only play classic blues. For them, positions really are useful.
>
> And anyway, everyone does what he likes (
>
> Laurent
>
>
> On 26/10/2018 18:56, "Michael Rubin" wrote:
>
> 1. Yes and people do. If you restrict yourself to a C chromatic. there is
> no need to do it, but if you own chromatics in multiple keys positions are
> the way to think.
>
> F can definitely be referred to as 1 flat.
>
> 2. Modes go much deeper than the white notes on a keyboard.
>
> Many people begin to think about modes by using the C major scale as a
> starting point. The C major scale is all of the white notes on a keyboard
> from C to C.
>
> C D E F G A B C
>
> If you played it as is that would be the 1st mode of the C major scale.
> This is also known as the C major scale.
>
> If you played the same notes but began on D that would be the 2nd mode of
> the C major scale.
>
> D E F G A B C D
>
> This no longer sounds like Do re mi fa so la ti do. It has its own
> feeling. To get that feeling, the band has to be in the key of D. (or
> over a D chord)
>
> There is more than one kind of music. In general, songs can be categorized
> into three types of music, major, minor and bluesy. Notice I did not say
> blues. Led Zeppelin is not as bluesy as Muddy Waters, but they are a heck
> of a lot bluesier than John Denver. Bluesy music can be subcategorized
> into two different types, major blues (think Let the Good Times Roll) and
> Minor Blues (Think The Thrill is Gone). To get the feeling of the 2nd mode
> of the C major scale, the band NOT ONLY has to play in the key of D, but
> has to be playing the appropriate style of music. For example, if you
> played D E F G A B C D as you scale during a song in D major, it would not
> sound good. BUT if you played in D minor (for example) it would sound good.
>
> Since there are seven distinct white notes, there are seven modes of the C
> major scale.
>
> Now let's look at the G major scale.
>
> G A B C D E F# G
>
> If you played it as is that would be the 1st mode of the G major scale.
> This is also known as the G major scale.
>
> The feeling you get from the 1st of mode of the C major scale when the song
> is is in C major is the SAME feeling you get from the 1st mode of the G
> major scale when the song is in G major.
>
> If you played the notes of the G major scale but began on A that would be
> the 2nd mode of the G major scale.
>
> A B C D E F# G A
>
> Notice this is a mode that has a black key in it.
>
> The feeling you get from the 2nd mode of the C major scale when the song is
> in D minor (the style of music is an example) is the same feeling you get
> from the 2nd mode of the G major scale when the song is in A minor.
>
> So there are seven modes of EVERY major scale. The feeling you get from
> the 1st mode of all 12 major scales is the same no matter the key. The
> feeling you get from each mode of all 12 major scales is the same no matter
> the key.
>
> Here are the names of the seven modes of major scales and an explanation of
> the generally agreed upon feelings they create when in the key that shares
> their root. Remember different people hear music differently and so a
> discussion of everyone's take on the feelings would be welcome:
>
> 1. Ionian aka the major scale. Happy music.
>
> 2. Dorian works in minor music but it is important to know there is more
> than one type of minor song. For certain types, Dorian sounds great, for
> others, not so much. However, most listeners are very forgiving with minor
> harmony so don't worry too much. Generally, if the IV chord is major,
> Dorian is a great choice.
>
> Dorian works in major blues. That is not major songs and blues songs.
> That is blues songs that are major in quality.
>
> Dorian works in minor blues. (although like I mentioned above, not ALL
> minor blues).
>
> 3. Phrygian works in some chords during jazz songs.
>
> Phrygian works in middle eastern music, often.
>
> Phrygian works in flamenco music, often.
>
> 4. Lydian works in some chords during jazz songs.
>
> Lydian works in creepy music in scary movies.
>
> There is a school of music where lydian is the main scale that all other
> musical ideas are built from, in the same way that most westerners base
> their ideas off of the major scale.
>
> 5. Mixoyldian sounds good in major blues.
>
> 6. Aeolian aka the natural minor scale, aka the relative minor scale.
> This is the main way Americans play minor music. It does not work in all
> minor songs.
>
> 7. Locrian works in some chords during jazz songs.
>
> Locrian works in creepy music in scary movies.
>
> It is good to realize we have only been considering the modes of major
> scales.
>
> Let's look at the C jazz melodic minor scale.
>
> C D Eb F G A B C.
>
> There is only one black key. Eb.
>
> Of all the major scales, only two contain only one black key:
>
> G A B C D E F# G
>
> and
>
> F G A Bb C D E F
>
> Neither of these major scales contain an Eb. The G has an F#, otherwise
> known as Gb. Gb is not Eb. The F major scale has a Bb. Bb is not Eb.
>
> Therefore the C jazz melodic minor scale is not a mode of any of the 12
> major scales. It is unique and separate from the major scales.
>
> If I played the C jazz melodic minor scale starting on C
>
> C D Eb F G A B C
>
> I get the 1st mode of the C jazz melodic minor scale.
>
> If I played the C jazz melodic starting on D:
>
> D Eb F G A B C D
>
> I get the 2nd mode of the C jazz melodic minor scale. To get its proper
> feeling, I would need to play in the key of D (or over a D chord) and
> during a song with the type of feeling that works with the second mode of
> the C jazz melodic minor.
>
> Therefore there are 7 modes of the C jazz melodic minor scale.
>
> So here is the important takeaway:
>
> There are as many modes as there are notes in all of the scales in the
> world.
>
> Sometimes when you are hearing someone play unusual music they have chosen
> a scale that is not a major scale and become very adept at one or more of
> its modes and have found places where it sounds good.
>
> For most people, we playing simpler music, blues, rock, pop, country,
> gospel, folk, punk, reggae. We benefit most from Ionian, Dorian,
> Mixoyldian and Aeolian. Becoming adept at these modes will enable you to
> participate in almost every song in these genres.
>
> Michael Rubin
> michaelrubinharmonica.com
>
>
>
>
>
>> On Fri, Oct 26, 2018 at 9:27 AM Aongus Mac Cana <amaccana at xxxxx> wrote:
>>
>> I have to admit that I know as much about music theory as "a dog knows
>> about
>> a wireless". However I am trying to pick it up on a "need to know" basis.
>>
>> Question #1: Can you use the terms 1st 2nd and 3d positions for a
>> Chromatic harmonica?
>>
>> In other words on a C Chromatic is G 2nd D 3d. and A 4th. (and on a G
>> Chromatic would D be 2nd and A 3d.)
>>
>> Some Irish Trad players use the terms: 1 sharp 2 sharps and 3 sharps to
>> describe the keys of G,D. And A. With this system I guess F would be called
>> 1 flat?
>>
>> Question #2: As regards modes are these simply defined by where you
>> start your scale on the piano keyboard while confining yourself to the
>> white
>> keys?
>>
>> Hoping that someone may indulge an ignoramus,
>>
>> Beannachtai
>>
>> Aongus Mac Cana
>>
>>
>
>
>
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