Re: [Harp-L] Re: Bell Metal Reeds



LOL, good stuff there Joe!

And for the record, let me state that English really is my native language,
although clearly my proof reading skills suck as evidenced by "I am have to
disagree with Joe", seriously, I let that slip by?!?

Regarding the rest, I will clarify: I actually meant that the term "Bell
Metal" itself, not Hohner's application of the the term, was not a
marketing ploy. I have no knowledge of what metals Hohner has used over the
years, nor do I claim knowledge of their marketing strategies.

As for the rest, I won't debate what alloys were used when and where and
for which instruments. Some formal training as a jeweler and bladesmith,
plus having read a bit about the history of cymbal/gong making over the
years, leads me to believe the metalsmiths in those fields, and others,
 were able to maintain pretty consistent control of alloys over many
hundreds of years, but I have no knowledge of what happened with regards to
harmonica makers. And, I suspect there could be plenty of debate on what
"consistent" might actually mean with regard to alloys over the years, lol.

Hardly matters in the end, but it's an interesting topic.

On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 4:17 PM, Joseph Leone <3n037@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

>
> On Nov 17, 2011, at 9:37 PM, Lorenbookbinder wrote:
>
> > I am have to disagree with Joe:
>
> And you should. Especially at the voting booth. lol
>
> > Bell Metal is not purely a marketing ploy,
>
> True. But here's the way I see it. Joe Hohner shows up the trade fair in
> Paris. Someone who must have had at least a modicum of experience with
> harmonicas..OR wasn't deaf, tried his products and said: "Man, that's some
> sweet harp dude". Joe Hohner smiles and says: "Yeah, they have bell metal
> reeds". The judge? says: "Works for me". And then proceeds to award a prize
> medallion. Joe then stamps the medallion likeness on his harmonicas. :)
> Then, as time rolls on, after winning numerous awards at trade fairs, he
> starts putting the FRENCH quality mark on his harmonicas. The snow capped
> peak of Mt. Blanc. Which resembles a 6 pointed star. Which is the French
> quality mark for the highest point in France. Denoting the highest level of
> craftsmanship reached.
>
> See, I believe that Hohner made an honest attempt at actually using bell
> metal, but, I don't think it was possible. Not with the technology of the
> day.
>
> > it refers to specific brass/bronze alloys typically used ( these days)
> to make cymbals and gongs. Also snare drums, and yes, bells. The term is
> not meant to imply brass from melted down old bells.
>
> Right. And I never said it WAS from melted down old bells. I think I said
> something like it wasn't inconceivable that there couldn't BE some bell
> metal in Hohner's harmonicas. See, back then the technology wasn't precise
> enough to tell exactly what made up these metals. And I don't think it
> would have been a serious thought to bring new ingots from Chile, Bolivia,
> and Paraguay up from So. America just to make sure that the amalgum was
> precise. It would necessitate pure new metals to be able to reach a 22/78
> ratio. And with no spectrograph available...naah, I don't buy it. :)
>
> I had mentioned WWI, and that was supposed to be a tip off. Harmonicas
> have been around for a lot longer than that, and the metal used was what
> was available locally. Locally beings Europe. I further believe that the
> cymbals made today probably ARE made from more precise alloys. In the case
> of German bronzes/brasses, I don't see any reason why the current metals
> couldn't actually contain remnants from the Colossus of Rhodes, various
> statues of Lenin Stalin, whatever, which had either been destroyed or fell
> over in a quake, or cannon from Napoleon's retreating army,.or..or. :)
> >
> > "Bell bronze, also known as bell metal, is the traditional alloy used
> for fine cymbals, many gongs and, as the name suggests, bells. It is
> normally stated to be one part tin to four parts copper, that is 20% tin,
> and this is still the most common formula. But there has always been some
> variation. Larger and smaller bells are cast with differing amounts of tin,
> and some bell, gong and cymbal makers use small but significant amounts of
> other elements, notably silver, goldand phosphorus.
>
> True, and don't forget the outer orbits of the elements. Some metals join
> tighter with others because the outer orbit of electrons of one element
> knit more closely into the outer orbit of the other element according to
> the number of 'spaces' there are in the orbits.
>
> > Bell bronze is a two-phase alloy, meaning that some of the tin is not
> dissolved in the copper grains but exists between them. This makes the
> metal harder and more brittle than a single-phase alloy, and also affects
> the way the metal responds to hardening by hammering and lathing, and
> greatly restricts the use of mechanised techniques of manufacture.
>
> You shure know your stuff.
> >
> > Major orchestras generally use bell bronze cymbals, which are capable of
> a greater dynamic range than any others."
>
> And they probably weren't made from scrap :) ...especially when you see
> the cost... yikes.
>
> jo-jo.... I had better run now..before I get into trouble.  ~(8^')x
> >
> >
> > Loren
>
>



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