Re: [Harp-L] Reed Measurements (Request For Information)

[Joe Leone <3n037@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

On May 18, 2011, at 8:05 AM, Robert Coble wrote:

> 
> Vern and Smokey Joe,
> 
> Thank you very much for providing inspiration regarding reed manufacturing and also
> for sharing your experience and expertise. While my friend is intrigued by the challenge,
> I am still more interested in the end product than in the process per se.

The process could be murderous. 

> I also am aware
> that (in all likelihood), I will pay a lot more for developing a usable punch-and-die set
> than it will ever cost me to buy replacement reedplates from Seydel. I CAN imagine how
> difficult the reed making process is.

The difficulty is in the ability for machines to do the work a lot faster than a person can do by hand. Welcome to the industrial revolution. :)

> I DO expect the punch-and-die making process to be 
> iterative, because of the very tight tolerances required. (Thank you for the specification
> of 0.005mm; that gives me a target to specify.)

0.oo5 mm equates to 0.ooo127 inches. That's 1 & 1/4 TEN thousandths. To me (at least) this seems TOO close. I doubt you can get anywhere near this figure. 
I would think that current tolerances are more like ONE thousandth. 

> My target reed blank is somewhere 
> between professionally made reeds at the factory and handmade reeds from razor blades,
> cartridge cases and other esoterica. I'm certainly NOT a "MacGyver" like Smokey Joe, but
> if a usable reed can be made by hand, then surely a machine can be made that makes
> the process a little easier and less time consuming; THAT is my goal.

A reed can be made by hand. I used smooth jawed vise grips. But it is tedious. Can take from .75 to 2.5 hours. And I only did it when I had no other choice. 

> I do NOT intend to
> EVER compete with the harmonica manufacturers economically. In all likelihood, I will
> spend my money and time and not get close, but the possibility of "failure" doesn't deter 
> me.

MY kind of guy
> 
> I have already done the process of cutting down longer reeds to fit shorter slots AND
> polishing the shortened reed to match (approximately) the profile of the required reed.
> It's a PITA and very time-consuming but I have done it. I'm not planning to make reeds
> for harmonica production; I want to have a means of making reed blanks so that I (and
> perhaps a small number of other people) will have a source for individual reed blanks.

I think at the factories they have about 2 dozen basic profiles/sizes as a primary starting point. Then there is a final sizing. I always use a lower pitched reed as it is a lot easier to take metal off. 

> It
> will be up to me (and those possible others) to cut the profile needed into the reed blank.

I agree. 

> If all the manufacturers provided a means to obtain individual reeds for any of their harps
> (rather than requiring either the purchase of a complete set of reedplates or another 
> harmonica), then my foray into this endeavor would definitely be INSANE. Unfortunately,
> only Hohner makes individual reeds available (and only for selected models). I understand
> the economics of WHY they do not (and likely NEVER WILL) sell individual reeds.

The handling/storage of the reeds exceeds the value of the reeds. The reeds are worth less than a penny. 

> I applaud
> Hohner for their support; it makes my work as a harp repairman so much easier for most
> of the harps I have to work on.
> 
> The design of the polishing wheel is modeled (somewhat loosely) on two different designs.
> One is the patent for a machine to grind the profile into a reed longitudinally. The other is
> the design of machines for making woodwind reeds, with some modifications to enable the
> individual reed to be held securely while being "polished" and also to control the depth of
> the stroke and the polishing area to a very tiny area of the reed.

Sounds like the tool used for oboes and bagpipes. :)

> The basic concept is similar
> to the idea of key cutting machines, with the acknowledged SIGNIFICANT difference that
> the tolerances are several orders of magnitude tighter. I know that some of the professional 
> machines for making clarinet and bassoon reeds can cost anywhere from $500 up to several 
> thousand dollars. I expect this machine to cost at least somewhere in that neighborhood to 
> build.
> 
> Thank you for the "Good luck!" I'm sure I'll need it!
> 
> Regards,
> Crazy Bob
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Subject: Re: [Harp-L] Reed Measurements (Request For Information)
> From: jevern@xxxxxxx
> Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 21:29:18 -0700
> CC: harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx
> To: robertpcoble@xxxxxxxxxxx
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On May 17, 2011, at 6:00 PM, Robert Coble wrote:I have made reeds, thickness profiling machines, a punch-and-die set for reed slots, and special reed-measuring jigs and fixtures.  My motivation was the challenge to my machining ability and not necessarily to get reeds.  I would not deter you from your project, but I suggest that reed making is more difficult than you may imagine. 
> I'm trying to get some punches/dies made for stamping out harmonica reeds.A friend has a tool-and-die shop and has at least seemed interested in the
> challenge of making a punch/die set for one of his small press punch machines.
> I have to rely on others' expertise-because I have none of my own!
> 
> .My initial attempt will be to stamp out reed blanks for Seydel Blues Session harps.Why? Because that's what I mostly play! I want to punch out the general shape
> of the reed (and the rivet hole) without any milling of the profile;
> Punches and dies for reeds are expensive.  Have you told the shop that you need .005mm tolerances on the punched reeds?  Do not expect to get installable reeds from the first set made.  You may have to iterate the design, making several sets before you are able to punch out exact replicas of Seydel reeds.  That will be expensive.  I suggest that making punches is not the first thing that you should do
> I intend to do profiling initially using polishing wheels. .
> All reed making procedures that I know of...including my own...cut the thickness profile before the reed is cut/punched to length and width.  There is a reason for this.  Milling on a tiny flexible reed is much easier if you can hold it on more than one side.
> It is difficult for me to imagine what kind of polishing wheel you will use and how you will use it.
> I know that's labor intensive, but that gives me complete control over pitch and response.
> Only if you can measure thickness, pitch and response.  Have you thought of the jigs and fixtures that you will need to check the pitch, stiffness/response, and thickness profile of your reed after removing each bit of material?  
> I suggest that you get some junk reedplates and practice shortening and re-profiling the long reeds to work in a shorter slot further to the right on the harp.  I suggest that you hold off on making punches until you are practiced, confident and happy with the results of your polishing-wheel process. 
> I am an engineer and machinist.  I have spent hundreds of hours over a period of years making a few reeds.  I never considered my processes completely successful.
> That said, I wish you luck.
> Vern
> 
>