[Harp-L] Re: Yellow Brass (was GM)

[HTownFess <Spschndr@xxxxxxx>]

Steve, my focus was probably not clear: if the current diatonic reeds
go back five years, then I have played them, and they're better in
many ways if one is simply going to tune & gap the harp for lots of
playing purposes; but if one is going to set up a harp to both be
played quite hard and overbend easily/gracefully, the yellow brass
reeds were distinctly superior.  I should think that when Joe Spiers
speaks up on the same issue, it would connote the upper end of the
performance envelope, which also includes nonoverbend-oriented players
who want the very best-playing diatonic possible.  As raw material for
that level, the same 1998 yellow brass reeds that everybody could buy
in the store were better than the current ones.  The current
reedplates are as good or better, overall, at what one is demanding of
the harmonica up to a point, and then the reeds themselves are
significantly worse, a pain to work with.  Better stockers but worse
as raw material for really serious modification.

I know the whole point was to make them not need serious modification
to make the harmonicas play well and congratulations on that--mission
accomplished.  Though it's not just my opinion that the red brass
reeds have a different feel and timbre than the yellow brass ones, as
far as stock condition goes (see the message I initially responded
to), I could live with that if the ultimate modification potential was
still there.  It's good business to use something that works well for
most customers; I hate to think how tiny a fraction of diatonic sales
is consumed by elite harp builders/players.  However, that quality I
mentioned, both playing hard and overbending gracefully, that's what
will get more players out in public to expand the musical conception
they regularly employ, and expand the musical role of the diatonic,
especially if they're not bandleaders in control of stage volume.  The
current stockers can't yet do that, still need tighter gapping to
enable easy overbends, and methods used to make the yellow brass reeds
do it all easily can't be used on the new stuff.  Customizers cope
with the new stuff well but they don't think as well of it as raw
material (some discussion of that can even be found in the Harp-L
archives, ran across it when I was looking for something else).  Top
builders/players praise the new harps *as stock harps*, so far as I
have seen--as a language professional, I notice careful phrasing on
their part--and of course that is progress.  The tradeoff make fine
sense in business terms for the manufacturer.

Now, that's the first I've heard about the yellow brass alloy not
being commercially available anymore.  In that case, *never mind*, you
know--but it would have been nice to hear that sooner.  Reasonable
people will concede business realities & anyone who paid attention to
metal prices the last decade should realize how expensive the alloy is
to buy in such quantities.  But the version I recall reading when red
brass first came out was that the red brass would last longer.  That's
great if the stats are coming in indicating "dramatically" longer
life.  My *impression* is that heavy Hohner users *are* getting longer
life *but aren't realizing or remarking it publicly like they ought to
be doing*.  The anecdotal evidence has not been there, so speak up,
folks, if they're lasting longer.  I *think* I tried to poll people
publicly on that early this century and didn't get any response either
way; haven't looked for that post in archives though.

I do have to point out that there's another point that turned up in
the archives: <<[Steve Baker] said they changed the alloy about 10
years ago, because the old reeds contained a small amount of lead and
they switched to the same alloy they used in the chromatics. A couple
of years ago, Hohner introduced a new reed profile that was meant to
increase reed life. Steve says it was "urgently necessary" and he says
reed life is up by 100 percent. Steve says the current reedplate is
superior to the ones from the 1990s and, in Steve's opinion, is the
best he's played since he started in the 1960s. He says the only
plates he's seen that were comparable were mint-condition ones from
the 1950s.>>  If the old alloy is commercially discontinued due to
lead content, then that all fits together and is wholly
understandable.  Superior to early 1990s reedplates?  Yes.  Superior
to 1998?  Depends on what one's purpose is.

As for catastrophic failures, perhaps I misread your post: <<Like all
current Hohner chroms, the 270 Deluxe has new reed profiles similar to
those used in the Classic diatonics, which are extremely durable and
responsive. These were introduced across the board to extend reed life
and reduce the risk of breakage, so you'll find the same reeds in all
current production models. Older instruments will have reeds with the
previous profiles. This has nothing to do with reed length however.>>
I read "risk of breakage" as catastrophic failure, breaking clean
off.  If you were talking about something else, never mind.

As for tuning slashes, I already pointed out an archival passage where
I refer to how reeds virtually never fail there.  I thought I had
challenged the myth that reeds usually fail there in this forum--and
I've seen it multiple times on Harp-L, and it's good to see you to
challenging it--but couldn't find my post on that in the archives.  I
think it may have been in the extinct Harp On! discussion group and I
couldn't find archives for them.  Offlist, I can produce a reliable
witness with whom I've discussed the persistence of that myth.

<<They're certainly good enough for me and I use them on all my 100+
gigs a year plus studio sessions and my own CD recordings.>>
And you bought how many Hohners last year?  OK, cheap shot, but that
does factor into it for the rest of us.  For the record, right this
moment, there's not anything contemporary I really like as raw
material--the late yellow brass was unique in what it would do.  I'm
buying some more harps to look into the matter again.

<<Any problems are more often the result of the exceptionally tight
tolerances than of poor quality components. >>
Straw man violation: I didn't say anything about poor quality.  The
tuning gouges aren't a quality issue, but there's more wrong with the
practice than inelegance.  I wonder what percentage of people tune
that way at home?

The whole new reeds/quality thing reminds me of a surprising passage
in a recent article on cutting-edge U.S. beers: The European brewers
expressed intense admiration for plain old Budweiser.  Why?  It's
really, really, really difficult to make beer whose flavor is both
consistent & good in vast amounts.  There's nothing wrong with
Budweiser that's been handled properly.  I especially like to buy it
in a bottle in an establishment on the same side of my city as the
brewery, ultra-fresh.  The Europeans weren't calling it an excellent
or premium beer, though: they were calling it a beer that was very
good in quantities that amazed them.

Thanks for the facts & explanations.  A Crossover is one of the harps
I've got on the way.

Stephen Schneider


On Mar 9, 10:59 am, Steve Baker <st...@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Stephen Schneider wrote:
>
> <Amen to bringing back the last generation of yellow brass.  If I
> understand Steve Baker correctly, the reason Hohner developed the
> current alloy/profile/milling was to get reeds that never, ever break
> off and expose the company to liability suits.  I understand their
> concern; the result, however, is harmonicas that some people never,
> ever want to buy again.
>
> Hohner ought to bring back the last yellow brass reed type, and try
> tuning it with something other than a diagonal slash at the base if
> they want to cut down on catastrophic failures.  Easy for me to say, I
> know, but I can spare two cents from what I spend to buy other brands
> now>
>
> Steve replies:
>
> What catastrophic failures are you referring to? Though slashing the  
> reed base with a tuning file is indeed not particularly elegant, I've  
> yet to see much evidence that reeds subsequently break at that point,  
> as SmoJo has rightly observed. Since the introduction of the current  
> Hohner Classic reed profiles about 5 years ago, incidence of breakage  
> has sunk and reed life has increased dramatically, but these reeds  
> (diatonic and chromatic) are also great to play. They're certainly  
> good enough for me and I use them on all my 100+ gigs a year plus  
> studio sessions and my own CD recordings. Any problems are more often  
> the result of the exceptionally tight tolerances than of poor quality  
> components. I think it's pretty unlikely that anyone playing one of  
> today's Classic reedplates would "never ever want to buy one again".  
> Even devoted and prominent players and employees of other brands  
> (whose names I'll be discreet enough not to mention here) praise  
> Hohner's current reed plates in the highest terms.
>
> In Hohner diatonics, the yellow brass you're referring to was  
> replaced in 2000 by the red brass used today. The decision to do so  
> was not connected with the reed profile / reed life topic, but was a  
> consequence of that alloy no longer being commercially available.  
> Before this, that same red brass had been used for years for chrom  
> reeds as well as on the original Meisterklasse diatonics and was  
> generally found very satisfactory in those models, so after  
> conducting extensive tests Hohner adopted it for diatonic harps. I  
> also liked the yellow brass and would be very curious to see how it  
> performs with the new reed profiles, but it's not simple to find a  
> foundry which will make small quantities of exotic alloys to  
> extremely precise specifications and buying a commercial oven load of  
> several tons ties up a lot of capital.
>
> Rick Epping championed the technique of breaking the right angle at  
> the point where the reed joins the rivet pad. This was introduced  
> later than the change of reed material, at about the same time as the  
> new profiles, and has contributed to the longer life of present day  
> Hohner Classic reeds. It was definitely not a feature of late 1990s  
> reeds which was subsequently discontinued, it was actually introduced  
> considerably later and is here to stay. This is a case of the good  
> new days rather than the good old days.
>
> Steve Bakerwww.stevebaker.dewww.bluesculture.com