Re: Subject: Re: [Harp-L] My case against Harp Depot

["Bob Laughlin" <rlaughlin@xxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Seems a bit one-sided, on the reactive side.

First of all, it wasn't merely one person mentioning grievances here, but
several. During the time I've been a member here, since 2002, this has been
a recurring theme, unresponsiveness in the face of unsatisfied customers,
waiting for indefinite periods of time for services or products that may or
may not show, in the long run.

You say that it's not fair to believe an accusation, on face value, against
HD, yet you wish us to believe your counter accusations against the
plaintiffs, again, at face value, apparently making attempts to discredit
ANY who have seeming legitimate grievances, merely because YOU, and certain
others you know haven't been similarly ill-treated.

Leaving aside the accusation of "theft", which may or may not be legitimate,
or merely an extension of the underlying frustration on the part of the
unsatisfied customer, several posters have made cases, even long-standing
cases against HD, at least most of which sound believeable. Unless the
posters having had these negative experiences are proven to be all the same
poster, posing as different posters, it would be unreasonable to expect
anyone to not to exercise due caution in doing business with an outfit whose
track record is seemingly intermittently suspect, inconsistent from one
customer to the next, and ESPECIALLY in light of the very statements made on
their own website, assuring potential customers that they or their
representatives may very well not be AVAILABLE, TIMELY, nor even willing to
receive mail that hasn't been separated by a week's time from the last.

Again, read it yourself:

http://www.harpdepot.com/email.cfm

Along the line of the "good-old-boy" thread of recent, maybe their business
has this element, based on whom they know, or have personally met. Some
receive good, efficient, responsive treatment, while others are left to
flounder?

Seems like both sides in this issue have strong feelings, and each side has
that right, without having to be exposed to coercion, threat, or demeaning
sarcasm from the other.

Personally, I tend to "believe all things", until further evidence arives to
illuminate the truth.

And I still think that any who pose as friends of Doc, Richard, or Harp
Depot would be doing them a favor by sending them a note. Heck, I don't even
know them, and I did.

BL




----- Original Message ----- 
From: <EGS1217@xxxxxxx>
To: <kenneth.d@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: <harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, March 24, 2008 1:07 PM
Subject: Subject: Re: [Harp-L] My case against Harp Depot


> Ken Deifik writes:
>
>
> At 09:18 AM 3/22/2008, you wrote:
> >  BBB claim  number-70040953I
>
> "I'm not a big fan of BBB's.  They have no  teeth.  They originated in a
time
> when people didn't have the internet  to vent their grievances."
>
> ....completely agree about the BBB.  But the internet can be a
double-edged
> sword.  People use it for a lot more than simply 'airing their
grievances'.
> Sometimes they refuse to accept they're incorrect or not  right, and use
it
> for blackmail. Or simply to trash another person's  reputation.   Is that
not
> so?  I can cite a couple of examples if  you need them....
>
> "Just a bit more teeth: let Harp Depot know that you  have posted a couple
of
> scathing reports on Harp-l, for all 1500 subscribers  to see.  Send your
> posts along with your note.  Remind them that  they have competition and
> that their competitors have a better reputation on  this list."
>
> ...Do they?  Not for me.  As I've already mentioned, one of those
> competitors fell down badly in satisfying me as a customer (and I spent a
great  deal of
> money...and do consistently, on harmonicas and other materials)...so
those
> others have lost me as a customer, while Harp Depot has my business from
now
> on, since I can buy from them in the flesh, 2 - 3 times a year.  Works
for me.
>
> ...and he already carboned Harp Depot, as have I in my  posts.  Some
people
> seem to have missed that.
>
> "And -  here's the real teeth - that if they refunded your money you will
> post a  mention on Harp-l, because it was obviously all a big mixup."
>
> ....I don't quite get this.  Everyone (including you, Ken)..is  assuming
that
> his recounting of events is entirely accurate.  Why? Most  people retell a
> story to put themselves in the best possible  light...occasionally leaving
out
> some pertinent facts. Ever watch one of the TV  'Judge' shows?  Some of
the
> Judges are very good at ferreting out the  truths behind the original
statements.
>  And why would satisfying him  now, 'fix' the damage he did by calling
them
> thieves?  In my humble  opinion, once you've gone to those lengths, you've
> pretty much burned your  bridges. Why would ANY vendor wish to consider it
a
> 'mixup'...if someone  has already used such over-the-top language?
>
> "I will tell you that  your bad review means that a seriously bad
experience
> is registered by all  of us who read it.  Elizabeth's posts even things
out,
> and it's a good  thing she posted - but I don't want to do business with a
> company that has a  50% track record."
>
> ....thank you for that, Ken.  Clearly you're not among the couple  of
harp-l
> 'flamers' who barraged me offlist deciding that I had  absolutely NO right
to
> recount my long term positive experiences with a company  whose doors I've
> personally seen hundreds of satisfied customers go in and out  of over my
3+
> years attending SPAH, Buckeye and now GSHC.
>
> I'm not alone....now Danny has posted of his many purchases and
satisfactory
> experiences with them as well. I know we're not alone on this  list.
Perhaps
> some of the other satisfied customers I know who are here  are merely
> unwilling to jump in for fear of being attacked as we  are.  For the
record he's no
> 'newbie', but a long-term Slidemeister  poster....and someone who was the
> videographer for SmoJoe's videos at last  Buckeye.  But he's a quiet guy
who isn't
> going to blow his own horn or make  the same amount of noise as some here
who
> jump in despite never having dealt  with Harp Depot.
>
> Perhaps what people who post and read this list don't quite realize also
is
> that most of Harp Depot's customers aren't internet users for the most
part,
> but  the kind of people who save up their money to buy their harmonicas
when
> they  attend the conventions and so are not affected by the relatively
small
> handful  of grievances aired online, no matter how widely people think
they're
> spreading  their message.  AS a satisfied customer, these complaints don't
> affect me  either.  I'll continue to purchase from Harp Depot since I've
been
> treated  very well by them, and why shouldn't I?
>
>
>
>  "Harp House and Coast2Coast, have
> treated me well 100% of the  time.  The fact that Harp Depot doesn't mess
up
> the way they have with  you on every order is not especially
> meaningful."
>
> ...It is to ME and all of its other customers, just as your positive
> experiences with your vendors have been to you.  Why isn't one as valid as
the other?
>
> You might be surprised to find that your vendors don't all have pristine
> records.  Or is anyone here really so naive as to think they do?
Again..you're
> recounting your personal anecdotal experience.  I'd warrant  there are
quite a
> lot of people out there with negative experiences with your  vendors, but
who
> don't go blaring them on 'this' list.
>
> "The great thing about living in our highly connected world is
> that  online merchants can no longer expect to keep their bad behavior
> private.  And ignoring you for this long is bad behavior and should be
> broadcast here."
>
> ....but ...you're assuming that what this person (or any person, for that
> matter) is saying is the absolute truth. Otherwise the 'threat'  of
> "broadcasting bad behaviour" as you put it, can simply be used  to
blackmail any vendor,
> can't it?
>
> Perhaps what we really need to do...is run a show of hands.  That's
> right...one online, another off.  One, of the satisfied customers who
purchase from
> HD at the conventions...others can be of the people who purchase  from
EVERY
> source on or offline..and let's not forget other musicians-  guitarists,
> saxophonists, keyboardists, etc.  After all, most vendors sell  more than
> harmonicas...so let's let everyone in on this.  Let's really do a
'comparison taste
> test'.  You'all might be very surprised by the  results.  Do we have any
> volunteers to conduct this?  You're all so  eager to believe the worst of
HD...let's
> see you do the legwork.
>
>  How do you know this particular story has legs?  How  do any of us know,
for
> that matter?  Frankly, the only way any one of us  can know the truth of
this
> matter is to see the order slip, see the number,  talk to the people he
spoke
> with at Harp Depot...see the signature he says was  on the money order
(NOT a
> check, btw)..he first called it a money order and then  a check - two
> entirely different things, and then compare that signature to  every
single employee
> of Harp Depot.  How do any of us know that the money  order even arrived
at
> Harp Depot's store and not been waylaid along the  way?  Money orders are
> notoriously not a safe way to do business.   Frankly, if I was going to
send a money
> order and not a personal check for that  amount of money in the mail, I'd
> have sent it certified mail, return  receipt requested.....then there'd be
> absolute proof of it having arrived at its  destination, and no question
of who
> signed it.  Did he do this?
>
> Before labeling someone a thief, one had better be  absolutely sure of
their
> facts.  Yet so many people here are quite  willing to believe the very
worst
> about these two people, with the barest  of data from someone you don't
know.
> I find that  unconscionable.
>
> What if someone called 'you' (the collective you) thieves?  And put it  on
> Harp-L for all the world to see?  Claimed you had a check, cashed it and
> refused to respond satisfactorily to him?  Then 'declared' you a deadbeat
and
> thief, and said you stole from him?  This rises to the level of slander
and libel.
>  It's accusing people of a felony.
>
> What some of you seemed to have missed too..was that I in no way  objected
to
> a person 'airing a grievance'.  I had continued the 'grievance'  comment,
but
> no one bothered reading or understanding the rest of the  sentence.  What
I
> objected to was calling people thieves and accusing them  of such in a
public
> forum such as this, so as to possibly affect their  business. A grievance
is
> perfectly acceptable, 'grieve' away all you  want; none of my business,
and I
> don't much care....but calling someone a thief  is not. Last I looked, if
one
> wants to accuse a person of a felony, one has  the recourse of the law,
not
> using an online source where a vendor makes his/her  living.   You're
missing the
> nuances.
>
>  I wouldn't want to lose 1500 potential customers.  I
> wouldn't even want to lose 15.
>
> ....Are you a vendor?  A  store?  If so, then of course you  can speak
from
> that viewpoint, but I hardly think any of the rest of us should  speak for
Harp
> Depot.   For all any of us know they have already  addressed any previous
> complaints they might have received...and the  complainants are simply
unhappy
> with the outcome.  Possible?
>
>  I hear people STILL complaining all the time about not being able to
return
> a harmonica they've already played...no matter to whom: local store,
online
> vendor, convention 'store'.  But those are the rules with a mouth
instrument,
> which we all have to accept.
>
> (Frankly, one of the best ways  customers who have had a good experience
> with Harp Depot could show their  support for them would be by letting
them
> know that this discussion is going  on in front of 1500 online harp
players.)
>
> ....On this point I disagree. Why should I?  If a  complainant is having
the
> nerve to air such an off-the-wall  accusation here in THIS public forum,
then
> I have just as much right to air my  support here as well...and have no
> obligation or duty to pass on someone  else's complaints, if the
complainant isn't
> taking it directly to the  vendor in question.  As it is, this 'DaveBass'
who
> says he came here  precisely to make his complaint about HD, carboned them
on
> his post, as did  I.  I think that's quite sufficient.  Let the
disgruntled
> people do their own dirty work.
>
> "It may not be possible to give  absolutely perfect service, but it is
> possible to show your customers that  you are trying your best.  That's
what
> customers care about.   Having worked for a busy company that did mail
> order, and having seen how  utterly meticulous and prompt they were about
> resolving problems, I know  that NOBODY is so busy that they can't keep in
> touch with you until a  problem is resolved -- unless they don't want to."
>
> ....I don't disagree with you at all on this, but again, you're assuming
> they haven't, aren't you? How do any of us know?  Because a few
disgruntled
> customers said so?  I'm afraid I have to have a bit more  'proof' than
that.
>
> "In support of my own sanity, I won't be using them  until you announce
here
> that they've rectified your problem."
>
> ....your choice, of course, Ken. I'm only curious if you know  this guy
> personally to accept everything he says as fact?  But I  believe I'll then
choose
> to exercise MY right to continue to purchase  from them...am actually
planning
> to buy a couple more CX-12 chromatics from Harp  Depot at Buckeye next
week,
> and won't deal with your on-line vendors...just to  balance things out.
> That'll make it a bit more fair, in my book.  I  believe it's called
'putting your
> money where your mouth  is'...n'est-ce-pas?  ;)
>
> Elizabeth
>
>
>
>
>
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