Re: [Harp-L] re: Diatonic-sounding chromatic?

[Jonathan Ross <jross38@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

Philharpn wrote:

> First of all harmonica fans, chromatics and diatonic are tuned  
> differently. No, this is not the note layout difference between a  
> Marine Band layout and a solo tuned button chromatic.
>
> They also have different tunings for some of the same reeds.


I'm not sure what you mean by this?  Doe you mean that some of the  
same pitches use different scale (size, shape) reeds between diatonic  
and chromatic, or are you implying that the actual tuning methods are  
different.  If the former, while that is true, it is also true of  
different manufacturers and models of diatonic, so I don't see that  
this would be a reason for a significant difference in sound.  If the  
later, I haven't seen this based upon factory tuning or any of the  
books on tuning harmonicas (diatonic and chromatic): the methods are  
the same for diatonic and chromatic--indeed, the basic method for  
tuning a free-reed of any sort is pretty much the same.

If you mean the intonation of the instrument, this still doesn't  
explain why a chromatic in 12-tone equal temperament (12TET) sounds  
different than a diatonic in 12TET--even a solo tuned diatonic.


> These two things together contribute to the different "sound" or  
> timbre. Valves don't have anything to do with the sound except by  
> reducing air leaks -- a leaky harmonica DOES sound different from a  
> better sealed one.


I disagree entirely with the idea that valves don't effect the  
sound.  By isolating the reeds from one another they significantly  
effect the overall nature of the sound of the instrument.  This is  
most noticeable, IMO, on chords, where instruments with valves tend  
to have less blend than instruments without them.  I am not sure why  
this happens, but it is something I have noticed on several different  
harmonicas comparing valved and unvalved ones.  Thus, a half-valved  
diatonic has a distinctly different feel and sound to the valved  
chords than the unvalved, for instance.  Similarly, I've noticed that  
on the valved XB-40 playing chords and chord-fragments has a  
different tonal feel to it than on an unvalved diatonic.  Of course,  
this doesn't eliminate other variables, but as I have noticed it on  
valved diatonics as well, where the only major difference was the  
addition of valves.  By isolating the individual reeds you create a  
different sounding instrument than one where the reeds are not isolated.

Even in something like the Tombo Ultimo (a valveless chromatic) you  
still get this effect because each reed is isolated in it's own  
cell.  While you can get dual-reed bends and such by covering two  
cells at once, the reeds still act more as isolated reeds when  
playing chords, IMO.  There is something about having two unvalved  
reeds share a cell which contributes to a different sound than when  
the reeds are isolated, IMO--even when just isolating one of the  
reeds.  Another example is the slightly different timbre of the  
Suzuki Overdrive.  While here the reeds are not isolated from one  
another (unless you make them so), the nature of how the covers work  
hells to create a somewhat similar tonal effect (not the words  
"somewhat similar").


> (Some people are under the misapprehension that they can turn their  
> button solo tuned chromatic into a blues harp by simply removing  
> the valves/windsavers. Not true. This addresses only one problem of  
> the bending equation: interaction of blow-draw reeds on draw bends.  
> It doesn't rearrange the note layout needed.)


It does not, but it does allow dual-reed bending.  Personally I find  
the trade-off in lack of airtightness not one I like, but some people  
disagree.  It doesn't make the chromatic a diatonic by any means.


> In addition to the note layouts, diatonics and chromatics "sound"  
> different between they are tuned differently. The blues harp,  
> Marine Band style harmonicas are generally "just" tuned, which  
> means they are tuned in fifths, octaves (or something like that)  
> and thus make good chords.
>
> Chromatics are tuned like pianos in an equal or tempered or  
> compromise tuning that sounds good in all keys.


There is a wide range of temperaments which are not equal.   
"Compromise" in terms of harmonicas is a loose term usually used to  
denote something which is neither 12TET nor in a Just Intonation,  
usually for diatonics.  These don't correspond to any historical  
temperaments, and thus there is no other name for them that fits  
better than "compromise" as in a compromise between two extremes.

As for the solo tuning, that is different, but it doesn't explain why  
solo tuned diatonics and solo tuned chromatics sound different-- 
indeed, if the windsavers don't make a difference shouldn't a solo  
tuned chromatic and a solo tuned diatonic both in 12TET sound  
basically the same?  I think the various construction issues which  
were brought up prior do a better job of explaining why that  
difference exists: the presence of valves; the addition of a slider  
and subsequent air-leakage (thus necessitating valves); and the  
distance between the oral cavity and the reeds.


> Some people don't consider these diatonic-layout (Richter tuned)  
> real chromatics because even though they have a button to raise the  
> pitches a half-step, they still follow the Richter (blues harp)  
> note pattern. But as I recall, the original chromatic harmonica  
> followed the design of the Richter tuned chromatic (like the Koch  
> and Slide Harp).


The usual reason I've heard that the Koch, Slide-harp and Hering  
models are often not considered chromatic is because they are not  
chromatic across the entire range of the instrument.  The lowest  
octave is missing several notes found in the Western 12-tone scale:  
particularly the flatted fifth, the sixth and the minor seventh  
related to the tonic (F#, A, and Bb for the key of C).  True, with  
half-valving you could bend for these notes, but the instrument is  
still not truly chromatic in that lowest octave.  Doesn't mean that  
these cannot be very interesting and useful instruments, of course.

I've thought that perhaps a Paddy Richter tuned Koch-style harp might  
be nice, especially if you did a little re-working of the system to  
make it truly chromatic:

slide:  C#  E# Ab C# E# G# C# E# G# Cb
blow:  C     E   A    C   E    G   C    E   G   C
hole:   1     2    3    4    5     6   7     8   9   10
draw:  D    G   B    D    F    A    B    D   F    A
slide:  D# Gb Bb  D#  F#  A#  B# D# F# A#

I used the non-enharmonic note names to indicate how the slide-in  
state relates to the natural notes, thus showing the patern shift in  
holes 2 and 3 and again in hole 10.

Of course, this wouldn't sound like a Richter diatonic, because it  
isn't one.  In the theoretical world, if you didn't have valves,  
assumed that distance between the oral cavity and the reed wasn't  
important and had a completely slider with absolutely no loss of  
compression maybe it would.  Maybe.

Of course, this doesn't really speak to the issue of difference in  
sound--it's just an idea for a tuning scheme I've had for a while and  
thought this was as good a time as any to mention it.





 ()()    JR "Bulldogge" Ross
()  ()   & Snuffy, too:)
`----'