[Harp-L] What's the big deal?

[Mojo Red <harplicks@xxxxxxxxx>]

Interesting posts on the L of late.

JR Ross has stirred the pot with some
most-excellent and provocitive posts. His points
are well taken and his logic is solid (for the most
part). 

Therefore I concede:
1) You can't play everything on a single diatonic
and have it sound perfect. Just isn't in the
physics.
2) Even the very best OB players struggle with
timbre and intonation problems. It comes with the
territory.
3) Music is percieved differently by different
people. Intonation/timbre problems that are
intolerable to one person, go un-noticed (or are
even appreciated) by others. Some people love the
banjo. Go figure.

These are very valid points. And my response to it
all is this... So what? 

I mean, what's the big deal? Are we here to see
that the harmonica takes over the world? Or are we
here to learn a lot and have a ton of fun? 

I say we stick aruond see where this will little
beastie of an instrument will lead us. I love that
some among us are pushing the envelope. I say keep
pusing until it can't be pushed anymore!

If someone can't stand to hear Howard Levy play
Masquerade on a diatonic harp... I say, hey, listen
to something else? There are many other versions of
that song to choose from. Personally, I don't think
the harmonica is the right axe for all music
either. But GOD BLESS those souls who are making
the attempt... to see just how far they can go. To
me, that's Incredible!! 

There are no problems, only solutions.

No one is forcing anyone to learn overbending
techniques, or even to accept them in any given
musical context. 

Postulating that perhaps a melding of many various
playing techniques, various kinds of harps and
various harp tunings is a good way to approach
complex music is a WONDERFUL idea. I say, GO for
it! 

I happen to agree. My personal level of OB playing
and/or understanding of the deepst aspects of harp
are miniscule. I only know a limited number of
positions on diatonic and so keep all keys on hand.
I'm not good enough on a chromatic to play in every
key, so I keep several keys around of that
instrument as well. 

No biggie. To each his own. I don't see where the
argument is. One guy is trying to stretch really
far one way, another guy is stretching another way.
That's a really good thing. 

More power to anyone who keeps this thing alive and
vibrant and growing. 

Okay... I've had my say.

Harpin in Colorado,
--Ken M.


--- "Jonathan R. Ross" <jross38@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> Chris posted a song by Howard Levy to illustrate
> a point:
> 
>
>http://www.michalekstrone.com/music/masquerade.mp3
> >
> >Howard Levy playing a fairly complicated jazz
> tune one three
> >different harps.
>  
> I agree that it's a complicated piece, but rather
> than a rebuttal of my
> points, I think it illustrates them rather
> clearly.
> 
> I've listened to it a few times now, and while I
> think overall it's a
> nice piece, I can't get around the intonation and
> timbre issues.  They
> are there right at the beginning--struggles to
> hit notes in the basic
> theme when he first states it.  There are
> brilliant passages, but then
> they are interrupted by out-of-tune and
> off-timbre pitches, especially
> annoying in some of the attempts at cascades and
> runs.  Legato is a well
> know and accepted problem on the harmonica, and
> to me it seems that
> these issues of intonation and timbre accentuate
> the instrument's
> limitations in that regard, in a very unpleasant
> manner.  That's the
> first solo.  The piano solo is good, if bland,
> but I've been listening
> to a lot of Ellington solos lately, so my
> standards for piano is pretty
> high at this moment.  Howard's second solo starts
> off in a way that
> reminds me of a solo I heard recently on the
> radio.  It was by one of
> the icons and idols of jazz saxophone.  I thought
> of it at the time as
> self-indulgent, in that the instrument was being
> made to create sounds
> it didn't want to purely for the sake of those
> sounds.  I feel that
> Howard's solo isn't in that realm--it's much,
> much more musical.  But,
> there is a difference, and it's that the sax
> player can hit the notes he
> was trying for when he wants to (I've heard it),
> where I don't think
> Howard can hit these notes cleanly that he's
> trying here.  Fortunately,
> the solo has some wonderful parts in the middle
> where he avoids the low
> end queasiness and shows excellent phrasing and
> taste.  The Hammond solo
> is very nice, actually, a relaxed vibe, with no
> attempt at showing off.
> My favorite part of the piece, actually.  The
> third solo by Howard
> starts off wonderfully, with a well timed and
> phrased introduction,
> easing the transition from the Hammond to Howard.
>  Overall I'd say this
> is his best solo by far, but many of the cascades
> he plays still lake
> clarity and definition because of the intonation
> and timbre issues.  Not
> all, but many.  I feel that when he settles down
> and doesn't try to
> force things with speed or what the harp can do
> he really sounds
> wonderful.  To me the third solo does that (for
> the most part) and the
> ending is excellent--the low bends here don't jar
> the way they do in the
> second solo where they are forced to carry a load
> they cannot bear.
> 
> That's my review.  I like the piece, but to be
> honest I think it shows
> many of the problems I wanted to point out. 
> Live, I might have neither
> cared nor noticed these issues, but this is a
> recording and I do.
> Howard shows that he has excellent phrasing and
> can really play
> wonderfully, but he also shows that he can sound
> quite bad at times when
> forcing the instrument into areas it simply
> doesn't want to go.  As he
> is the acknowledged best and this was posted as
> an example of what can
> be done, I have to say that it bears out
> everything I said.  There is
> much good music here, but in two out of three
> solos the attempt to
> hammer the square peg of the technique into the
> round hole of the
> instrument hurts the music significantly.  And,
> as Chris pointed out
> Howard was even changing harps to help alleviate
> these problems.  Again,
> I think that points out the issues I've been
> having with hearing these
> attempts at playing in this style.
> 
> Perhaps others don't care as much or hear these
> issues.  That's fine.
> While I love the harmonica, I mostly love it
> because I play it, not
> because I think it trumps the other things I
> listen for in music.  Thus,
> if I were to hear any other instrument have these
> issues, I'd feel the
> same way.  Also, while I appreciate strange
> sounds as much (more
> probably, based on my instrument and record
> collection) as the next guy,
> I don't when they detract rather than add to the
> music.  To me the
> intonation and timbre issues, particularly in
> fast runs and low notes,
> detract from the music (it's less of an issue
> here on held notes,
> perhaps because he was more specific about what
> the held notes in
> question were).  I'm sure others disagree, but to
> me this clip and
> review pretty much make my point as clearly as I
> can.
> 
> A few more responses to other things:
> George wrights:
> >If JR finds Howard's live version of
> "Masquerade" musically
> unsatisfying >because of intonation or timbre
> issues, there will never
> be a meeting of >the minds between us. I think
> it's great music, and
> whatever technical >issues there are do not get
> in the way of the music
> for me at all (Chris M. >has posted a link to
> this performance twice
> now).
> 
> That's fine--there's plenty of music I don't care
> for or have issues
> with that others love.  But, I think that these
> issues are not merely
> side-issues, but rather serious ones.  To me they
> do detract from the
> music, the same way as when I listen to a piece
> played on the organ
> hearing slipped notes or out-of-tune notes
> detracts from the music.  I
> don't have a different standard for the harmonica
> just because it's
> harder to play those notes in tune, rather I've
> been listening and have
> started to think that perhaps they _cannot_ be
> played in tune.  And
> that's ignoring the timbre issues.
> 
> >They said, 'were not interested in the
> harmonica' it won't draw and
> this is >a Jazz Club
> >etc etc.....I went on my RANT and told them that
> about 65% of their
> crowd
> >when they book TOOTS are Harmonica Players or
> enthusiasts!......
> 
> Which makes my point again--the door isn't very
> open to harmonica in
> general.  This is really another thread and
> another issue, but for the
> most part people who listen to jazz want to hear
> "jazz instruments"
> (sax, trumpet, piano, maybe vibes, etc...) the
> same as people who listen
> to classical want to hear "classical instruments"
> (strings, flute, oboe,
> etc...).  There is a small amount of the audience
> that is more
> adventurous, but even to someone as great as
> Toots or Larry Adler the
> door is still fairly shut.  But, I don't see how
> that has any relation
> to this thread about the attempts to play the
> diatonic in complex
> musics.
> 
> Also by Rob P:
> >I say we 'explore' the so called impossible and
> make MUSIC, but mostly
> LOVE >it and have FUN, but at the same time keep
> our standards high.
> (hopefully >the $ will follow,-)
> 
=== message truncated ===


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