[Harp-L] Opening the backs of cover plates

David Pearce <harpdog123@xxxxxxx> · Thu, 10 Mar 2016 09:46:13 -0500

  Vern conducted an experiment to test his postulation that opened cover plate backs do not increase the the volume of sound coming out of the back of the harmonica.  He also had scientific theory to support his postulation.  That's more than an opinion in my opinion.

David Pearce

Special 20's are super easy to open. I opened all of mine. They look nice, as for the argument about sound projection, 'bout the same as telling me I'm holding and cupping with the wrong hand. It's an opinion.
Regards, Wil

Sent from my iPad

> On Mar 9, 2016, at 6:25 AM, Randy Redington <rwredington@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> 
> Maybe so so...
> But I still enjoy doing it. For some folks it may seem like a waste of
> time, but for me... its fun.
> BTW, I play sp20s.
> I don't cut my cover plates, I just bend them in.
> And I don't bother with side vents like you find on the manji and
> crossover.
> I don't think the volume is affected but I do believe it affects the timbre
> of the sound.
> ---
> Randy Redington
> Surrendered...
> 
> *Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
> 
> 
>> On Mar 9, 2016 5:57 AM, "Rick Dempster" <rickdempster33@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> 
>> I agree, no difference worth noticing; but what, for example, Joe Spiers
>> does makes the plates stronger,
>> so my 'pocket' harp does much better with this particular mod.
>> RD
>> 
>>> On 9 March 2016 at 08:33, Vern <jevern@xxxxxxx> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Widening of the backs of harmonicas will have little effect on the sound
>>> for several reasons.
>>> 
>>> Diffraction is the tendency of sound waves to widen out when passing
>>> through an opening smaller than the wavelength.  This means that the
>> shape
>>> and size of the back opening will not affect the direction of the sound.
>>> See
>> http://www.ck12.org/user:a2VsbGV5dEB1c2QyMDQubmV0/book/Waves-and-their-Interactions-with-Matter/section/1.1/
>>> 
>>> The area of the back opening is huge with respect to the area of the reed
>>> slot.  As a consequence almost all of the pressure drop occurs across the
>>> slot. This means that constriction of air flow by the back opening is
>>> minuscule.
>>> 
>>> The logarithmic response of the human ear makes small differences in
>>> loudness imperceptible.
>>> 
>>> I have covered more than half of the back opening of a harmonica and have
>>> not been able to measure any difference in loudness on a meter.
>>> 
>>> Bottom lineâRobert is correct, flaring the back opening is a waste of
>>> effort.
>>> 
>>> Vern
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Mar 7, 2016, at 10:09 AM, Robert Hale <robert@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 9:45 AM, Peter Beck <kpfbeck@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> widened out the backs of a bunch of Special 20s
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> âI haven't found the result to be worth the work to open the backs of
>>> harp
>>>> covers.
>>>> I consider gapping, embossing, and arcing more worthwhile than flared
>>>> covers.
>>>> 
>>>> NEAR
>>>> There are some variations of sound heard by the player in close
>> proximity
>>>> to the reeds. Since it is a personal experience, one may choose to
>> pursue
>>>> the modification.
>>>> 
>>>> FAR
>>>> I don't think the audience, and most players, can distinguish open to
>>>> closed back harp on stage.
>>>> 
>>>> To evaluate what a microphone picks up, and delivers to an audience,
>>> either
>>>> live thru the PA or recorded medium, we would need to test only ONE
>>>> variable: the open to closed back of ONE model harp.Other variables
>> among
>>>> harps are reed composition / design, comb, choice of mic, and EQ in the
>>>> chain. Again, if the A/B difference is significant to the player it can
>>> be
>>>> done.
>>>> 
>>>> So I place the topic down the list of important activities. Best use of
>>> my
>>>> time is practice and performance.
>>>> 
>>>> Robert Hale
>>>> Serious Honkage in Arizona
>>>> youtube.com/DUKEofWAIL
>>>> DUKEofWAIL.com
>> 

-----Original Message-----
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To: harp-l <harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Wed, Mar 9, 2016 2:11 pm
Subject: Harp-L Digest, Vol 151, Issue 9

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: widening out/opening up the backs of harps (Randy Redington)
   2. Re: audix fireball (MundHarp@xxxxxxx)
   3. RE:Audix fireball (marcos coll)
   4. Re: B-Radical -- why is it great? (Arthur Jennings)
   5. Re: audix fireball (Larry Sandy)
   6. Re: B-Radical -- why is it great? (Joseph Leone)
   7. Re: Re: audix fireball (pdxharpdog@xxxxxxxxxxx)
   8. Re: widening out/opening up the backs of harps (Wilbur Euler)

Attached Message

From

Randy Redington <rwredington@xxxxxxxxx>

To

harp-l@harp-l org <harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx>

Subject

Re: [Harp-L] widening out/opening up the backs of harps

Date

Wed, 9 Mar 2016 07:25:59 -0600

Maybe so so...
But I still enjoy doing it. For some folks it may seem like a waste of
time, but for me... its fun.
BTW, I play sp20s.
I don't cut my cover plates, I just bend them in.
And I don't bother with side vents like you find on the manji and
crossover.
I don't think the volume is affected but I do believe it affects the timbre
of the sound.
---
Randy Redington
Surrendered...

*Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone

On Mar 9, 2016 5:57 AM, "Rick Dempster" <rickdempster33@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> I agree, no difference worth noticing; but what, for example, Joe Spiers
> does makes the plates stronger,
> so my 'pocket' harp does much better with this particular mod.
> RD
>
> On 9 March 2016 at 08:33, Vern <jevern@xxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> > Widening of the backs of harmonicas will have little effect on the sound
> > for several reasons.
> >
> > Diffraction is the tendency of sound waves to widen out when passing
> > through an opening smaller than the wavelength.  This means that the
> shape
> > and size of the back opening will not affect the direction of the sound.
> > See
> >
> http://www.ck12.org/user:a2VsbGV5dEB1c2QyMDQubmV0/book/Waves-and-their-Interactions-with-Matter/section/1.1/
> >
> > The area of the back opening is huge with respect to the area of the reed
> > slot.  As a consequence almost all of the pressure drop occurs across the
> > slot. This means that constriction of air flow by the back opening is
> > minuscule.
> >
> > The logarithmic response of the human ear makes small differences in
> > loudness imperceptible.
> >
> > I have covered more than half of the back opening of a harmonica and have
> > not been able to measure any difference in loudness on a meter.
> >
> > Bottom lineâRobert is correct, flaring the back opening is a waste of
> > effort.
> >
> > Vern
> >
> >
> > > On Mar 7, 2016, at 10:09 AM, Robert Hale <robert@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 9:45 AM, Peter Beck <kpfbeck@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > >
> > >> widened out the backs of a bunch of Special 20s
> > >
> > >
> > > âI haven't found the result to be worth the work to open the backs of
> > harp
> > > covers.
> > > I consider gapping, embossing, and arcing more worthwhile than flared
> > > covers.
> > >
> > > NEAR
> > > There are some variations of sound heard by the player in close
> proximity
> > > to the reeds. Since it is a personal experience, one may choose to
> pursue
> > > the modification.
> > >
> > > FAR
> > > I don't think the audience, and most players, can distinguish open to
> > > closed back harp on stage.
> > >
> > > To evaluate what a microphone picks up, and delivers to an audience,
> > either
> > > live thru the PA or recorded medium, we would need to test only ONE
> > > variable: the open to closed back of ONE model harp.Other variables
> among
> > > harps are reed composition / design, comb, choice of mic, and EQ in the
> > > chain. Again, if the A/B difference is significant to the player it can
> > be
> > > done.
> > >
> > > So I place the topic down the list of important activities. Best use of
> > my
> > > time is practice and performance.
> > >
> > > Robert Hale
> > > Serious Honkage in Arizona
> > > youtube.com/DUKEofWAIL
> > > DUKEofWAIL.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

Attached Message

From

MundHarp@xxxxxxx

To

brian.irving@xxxxxxxxx

Cc

harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx

Subject

Re: [Harp-L] audix fireball

Date

Wed, 9 Mar 2016 09:35:41 -0500

They are both excellent mics, and before I got a Fireball V I used an SM  
58, and before that its predecessor the Shure Unisphere. They are ALL good 
mics,  but I now use my Fireball whenever I travel to the tropics, rather than 
my  JT-30 "Crystal Balls" with crystal element which tends to fail in 
extremes  of temperature and humidity. The Fireball is DESIGNED for harmonica, 
and has a  volume control, It is VERY reliable, and is quite honestly the best 
"general  purpose" harp mic I have ever used.
John "Whiteboy" Walden
Still in Coastal Kenya!

In a message dated 3/8/2016 4:07:26 P.M. E. Africa Standard Time,  
brian.irving@xxxxxxxxx writes:

Hi  guys,

What are the advantages of an Audix Fireball mic over a Shure  SM58 for 
harp?

B

Attached Message

From

marcos coll <marcos_coll@xxxxxxxxxxx>

To

harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx

Subject

[Harp-L] RE:Audix fireball

Date

Wed, 9 Mar 2016 14:57:52 +0100

Im in love with the fireball...conected to a digitech with Richard patches...i got everything there!from classic astatic mic -tube amp sounds to crazy hammond or sinthetiser sounds...the only problem i see with the fireball is that the volume control is too soft ...i mean the wheel...many times im playing and with my hand i touch it without wanting...but i can deal with that!that rig wow!..im about to sell the last amp i have left and my back is very happy too!

Attached Message

From

Arthur Jennings <arturojennings@xxxxxxxxxx>

To

The Iceman <icemanle@xxxxxxx>

Cc

harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx

Subject

Re: [Harp-L] B-Radical -- why is it great?

Date

Wed, 09 Mar 2016 08:20:48 -0800

Harrison's problem was that he pre-sold hundreds (thousands?) of harmonicas at a price that turned out to be below his cost of production. Dave Payne wrote "The price was set before they actually knew the true cost of making it. I don't think we (I was there at the time) really had a true understanding of that until well into 2010 and the backlog was already there. "

It seems that the plan was to secure enough financing to clear the backlog and then a) raise the price on the B-Radical high enough to secure a profit and b) introduce a cheaper to produce harp to meet demand created by marketing. However, not surprisingly, money people didn't want to back a fledgling company already committed to making and selling hundreds (thousands?) of harmonicas at a substantial loss.

> On Mar 9, 2016, at 4:56 AM, The Iceman <icemanle@xxxxxxx> wrote:
> 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> <<From: Joseph Leone <3n037@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> 
> I think his engineering was ok. I think he was probably let down by suppliers. I heard a rumor that some suppliers delivered parts that were not up to spec. and then wouldn't make good on them. By either replacing them, adjusting them, or giving a refund or credit. His initial contracts were probably too trusting and not iron clad. 
> 
> smo-joe>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Biggest issue was bank pulling financing rug out from under him.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

Attached Message

From

Larry Sandy <slyou65@xxxxxxxxx>

To

Robert Hale <robert@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; Brian Irving <brian.irving@xxxxxxxxx>

Cc

Harp-L <harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx>

Subject

Re: [Harp-L] audix fireball

Date

Wed, 9 Mar 2016 16:39:03 +0000 (UTC)

Bob, do you mind stating what wireless mic transmitter set up you use?  I haven't found EXACTLY what I need, but own a couple decent choices.  I have a belt pack that requires a short cord from the mic then wirelessly transmits to it's receiver then through wires to an amp or PA.  I modified the pack to accept any mic cable type.  It also permits headphones with volume control.  I also picked up a wireless mic & receivers that I haven't used in public yet.  I'm not sure just how good it will sound.  I haven't connected these through my RP350 yet.
Lockjaw LarryNever ending experimenting specialist

    On Wednesday, March 9, 2016 11:22 AM, Robert Hale <robert@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

 On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 6:06 AM, Brian Irving <brian.irving@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> What are the advantages of an Audix Fireball mic over a Shure SM58 for
> harp?

I have played both. I like the fireball with volume.

Easy to hold. Not prone to feedback.
Clean mic for clean patches (wah, organ, octave down), and dirty sounds
thru FX processor (Richard Hunter patches on RP355)
Bonus: It's a short body mic, so adding my wireless transmitter makes it
about the same length as holding a vocal mic.

Robert Hale
Serious Honkage in Arizona
youtube.com/DUKEofWAIL
DUKEofWAIL.com

Attached Message

From

Joseph Leone <3n037@xxxxxxxxxxx>

To

Arthur Jennings <arturojennings@xxxxxxxxxx>

Cc

harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx harp-l <harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx>

Subject

Re: [Harp-L] B-Radical -- why is it great?

Date

Wed, 9 Mar 2016 12:28:21 -0500

I agree. I find it hard to imagine a company starting up from scratch when other companies had been in business for 178, 53, or even 16 years, already had the machinery and a huge archives of notes, formulas,
metalurgical processes, etc. I draw an analogy between this and wine. Old wineries can set aside a certain small number of bottles from good vintage years and sit on them. New wineries (like the fledgling American wineries) were intent on selling their wine as quickly as it was bottled. Ergo, used to be that there were NO vintage American wines. 

So, the Harrison venture had to operate with what they had..monetarily wise. And the monetary factor came from investors. And that's what the customers became. Not customers but investors. Unfortunately like some ventures, the capital (money was the water) was siphoned off more quickly than it could be beneficial for growth. And the project withered on the vine..so to speak. 

smo-joe 

On Mar 9, 2016, at 11:20 AM, Arthur Jennings wrote:

> 
> Harrison's problem was that he pre-sold hundreds (thousands?) of harmonicas at a price that turned out to be below his cost of production. Dave Payne wrote "The price was set before they actually knew the true cost of making it. I don't think we (I was there at the time) really had a true understanding of that until well into 2010 and the backlog was already there. "
> 
> It seems that the plan was to secure enough financing to clear the backlog and then a) raise the price on the B-Radical high enough to secure a profit and b) introduce a cheaper to produce harp to meet demand created by marketing. However, not surprisingly, money people didn't want to back a fledgling company already committed to making and selling hundreds (thousands?) of harmonicas at a substantial loss.
> 
> 
> 
>> On Mar 9, 2016, at 4:56 AM, The Iceman <icemanle@xxxxxxx> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> <<From: Joseph Leone <3n037@xxxxxxxxxxx>
>> 
>> I think his engineering was ok. I think he was probably let down by suppliers. I heard a rumor that some suppliers delivered parts that were not up to spec. and then wouldn't make good on them. By either replacing them, adjusting them, or giving a refund or credit. His initial contracts were probably too trusting and not iron clad. 
>> 
>> smo-joe>>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Biggest issue was bank pulling financing rug out from under him.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 

Attached Message

From

pdxharpdog@xxxxxxxxxxx

To

Hunter, Richard <turtlehill@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>

Cc

harp-l, List <harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx>

Subject

Re: [Harp-L] Re: audix fireball

Date

Wed, 9 Mar 2016 20:12:29 +0000 (UTC)

I have a Audix fireball mic and a Blowsmeaway Ultimate 57 with the bulletizer attachment. I also have/use Richard Hunter's patch set for the RP360, and/or run my mic through my pedalboard out to my amp which is usually mic'd out to the PA. Both Fireball and Ult 57 mics sound great through the RP with the Hunter patches and out to the PA. (assumes a sound person who understands harmonica sound). Both mics also sound great through my pedal board and out to my 32/20 Mission amp. I prefer to use the Ultimate 57 for shows because I think it cups better in my hands and allows me to dig in for more grit. I use the audix fireball as a backup in case my Ult. 57 shoots crap during a show, or when playing off the mic acoustically - either through a small PA or out from my amp. 

I don't like to go direct from any mic to PA without any tone controls precisely because harmonicas in the higher keys can be more "present" (my bandmates call it annoyingly shrill) - in the PA as Richard states. So having at least your own EQ pedal handy can give you the ability to lower the high freq. on higher keyed harps and also boost the high frequencies on the low-keyed harps. I find that helps me hear the harp in the mix a lot better when using Low keyed harps. It's a habit now to eq my sound based on the key of the harp. I also use the BBE Sonic Maximizer pedal and have it set to on always. Jason Ricci calls it a high definition pedal for harp - and I wholeheartedly agree. 

Most of my pedal gear is designed with two things in mind - 1) to help me hear what I'm playing better/clearer, and 2) allow me to add grit or texture as needed. Most important of these two is being able to hear what I'm playing in the mix over the other instruments. If you can't hear what you're playing it is not going to be good or enjoyable. Sound check is always good to baseline, and in our band we all agree to not touch the amp volume knob after sound check, but my pedals allow me to tweak on the fly as needed. 

It is all about playing well for the audience and being able to enjoy it on stage. 

Ross Macdonald 
sassparilla.info 
----- Original Message -----

From: "Richard Hunter" <turtlehill@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> 
To: harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx, harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx 
Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2016 12:50:00 AM 
Subject: [Harp-L] Re: audix fireball 

As it happens, I was at a jam session last night at the Spice of Life in London. When I got up to play, there was no time to set up my preferred rig--an Audix Fireball into a Digitech RP360XP into the PA--so I ended up playing through a handheld Shure SM58 directly into the PA. 

I was grateful that the leader called a tune in C to start off, because high-pitched harps have a lot more punch into a PA than low-pitched harps do. I wasn't terrifically happy with the sound--I would certainly have liked more grind in the tone--but I could hear myself clearly, and that's more than half the battle. 

After I played, one of the other harp players in attendance, who had played through the same mic just before me, asked me what rig I was using. When I told him it was the same rig as his, he was surprised. Big tone sounds big regardless of the rig involved. I could see from the hunched shoulders that guy exhibited when he stood before the mic that his tone was going to be an pinched as his posture. (In fairness to him, his main instrument was lap steel, and he played some truly beautiful stuff on that instrument.) 

At a different gig with Lowlands on Sunday night, the band before me (The Tupelo Uncles, whose thing is revamping the music of Uncle Tupelo, an Americana band from the 1980s) had a harp player who ran a bullet mic direct to the PA. That, in my opinion, is about the worst sound you can get with a harp playing acoustic music, because you lose all the high-end frequencies, not just the ones you want to lose. The harp player made the best of it, but I kept wishing he'd pick up an SM58 or practically anything besides a bullet. 

Like I said before on this thread, different mics sound very different, and it's unlikely that any player will ever find that one mic is tops for every situation, unless you always play the same kind of music with the same band. Because mics are relatively cheap, it's easy enough to build a collection over time. 

regarding the question raised on this thread about the Behringer mic--it might sound fine, and it might be less expensive than an SM58. I'd rather have an SM58 than an SM58 clone, especially given the relatively slight difference in cost, because Shure customer service is absolutely the best on the planet, and if that mic ever needs service you're going to be glad you bought it from Shure. 

Regards, Rihcard Hunter 

Attached Message

From

Wilbur Euler <dubyail@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>

To

Randy Redington <rwredington@xxxxxxxxx>

Cc

harp-l@harp-l org <harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx>

Subject

Re: [Harp-L] widening out/opening up the backs of harps

Date

Wed, 9 Mar 2016 09:03:06 -0700

Special 20's are super easy to open. I opened all of mine. They look nice, as for the argument about sound projection, 'bout the same as telling me I'm holding and cupping with the wrong hand. It's an opinion.
Regards, Wil

Sent from my iPad

> On Mar 9, 2016, at 6:25 AM, Randy Redington <rwredington@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> 
> Maybe so so...
> But I still enjoy doing it. For some folks it may seem like a waste of
> time, but for me... its fun.
> BTW, I play sp20s.
> I don't cut my cover plates, I just bend them in.
> And I don't bother with side vents like you find on the manji and
> crossover.
> I don't think the volume is affected but I do believe it affects the timbre
> of the sound.
> ---
> Randy Redington
> Surrendered...
> 
> *Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
> 
> 
>> On Mar 9, 2016 5:57 AM, "Rick Dempster" <rickdempster33@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>> 
>> I agree, no difference worth noticing; but what, for example, Joe Spiers
>> does makes the plates stronger,
>> so my 'pocket' harp does much better with this particular mod.
>> RD
>> 
>>> On 9 March 2016 at 08:33, Vern <jevern@xxxxxxx> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Widening of the backs of harmonicas will have little effect on the sound
>>> for several reasons.
>>> 
>>> Diffraction is the tendency of sound waves to widen out when passing
>>> through an opening smaller than the wavelength.  This means that the
>> shape
>>> and size of the back opening will not affect the direction of the sound.
>>> See
>> http://www.ck12.org/user:a2VsbGV5dEB1c2QyMDQubmV0/book/Waves-and-their-Interactions-with-Matter/section/1.1/
>>> 
>>> The area of the back opening is huge with respect to the area of the reed
>>> slot.  As a consequence almost all of the pressure drop occurs across the
>>> slot. This means that constriction of air flow by the back opening is
>>> minuscule.
>>> 
>>> The logarithmic response of the human ear makes small differences in
>>> loudness imperceptible.
>>> 
>>> I have covered more than half of the back opening of a harmonica and have
>>> not been able to measure any difference in loudness on a meter.
>>> 
>>> Bottom lineâRobert is correct, flaring the back opening is a waste of
>>> effort.
>>> 
>>> Vern
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Mar 7, 2016, at 10:09 AM, Robert Hale <robert@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 9:45 AM, Peter Beck <kpfbeck@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> widened out the backs of a bunch of Special 20s
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> âI haven't found the result to be worth the work to open the backs of
>>> harp
>>>> covers.
>>>> I consider gapping, embossing, and arcing more worthwhile than flared
>>>> covers.
>>>> 
>>>> NEAR
>>>> There are some variations of sound heard by the player in close
>> proximity
>>>> to the reeds. Since it is a personal experience, one may choose to
>> pursue
>>>> the modification.
>>>> 
>>>> FAR
>>>> I don't think the audience, and most players, can distinguish open to
>>>> closed back harp on stage.
>>>> 
>>>> To evaluate what a microphone picks up, and delivers to an audience,
>>> either
>>>> live thru the PA or recorded medium, we would need to test only ONE
>>>> variable: the open to closed back of ONE model harp.Other variables
>> among
>>>> harps are reed composition / design, comb, choice of mic, and EQ in the
>>>> chain. Again, if the A/B difference is significant to the player it can
>>> be
>>>> done.
>>>> 
>>>> So I place the topic down the list of important activities. Best use of
>>> my
>>>> time is practice and performance.
>>>> 
>>>> Robert Hale
>>>> Serious Honkage in Arizona
>>>> youtube.com/DUKEofWAIL
>>>> DUKEofWAIL.com
>> 