Re: [Harp-L] Bending Hole 7 Blow notes in MB 30 (The "hole" story...)

[Rick Dempster <rickdempster33@xxxxxxxxx>]

Thanks for all that Richard;
                                        I am conversant with how the
various harps work, and why it is not possible to have blow 7
bend down a tone on the SUB30 or any customised version of it, Brendan and
Zombor's excellent X Reed variation included, of which I own a  C and a D.
I may yet get used to the draw bend on 8 for the Bb (I speak in "C harp
dialect" only) but then again, maybe not.
Though I fool around in a variety of positions, most of my gig playing will
be in 1st, 2nd and occasionally 12th (yes and 3rd,4th and 5th, but minors
only!)
I have always loathed the Bb draw on hole 3.; didn't mind it on the XB when
I had it duplicated as a foot-to-the-floor blow bend on
4. And yes, I agree, the XB was not always ideal for all purposes, but the
forty reed harp is a less flakey beast than the thirty, in my opinion.
I have been using the easy and effective OB on hole 6 for so long now that
I would rather have it there still, or up one, as a blow bend.
Then again, custom harps, whether bumbled together by me, or made by
someone else are never quite right - as far as I am concerned.
So then there's always the chromatic and leave the standard diatonic to
what it does best; play down-home (semi) diatonic music with as much to go
wrong as a VW Beetle
or my old WLA Harley! I am always cheered by guitar players whingeing about
the impossibility of ever having their particular instrument of choice
perfectly in tune.
Anyhow, I just want to be able to do on hole 8 what I can do on hole 10. On
Brendan's X reed, at least it is possible on blow 4, with some tweaking to
the sympathetic reed.
Cheers,
RD



On 27 December 2013 00:17, rrsleigh <rrsleigh@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> Questions about Bending #7 Blow in X reed or MB 30 harmonicas
>
> In answer to the question about the MB-30 & MB-30 S harmonicas:
>
> "Does hole hole 7 blow bend down a tone?
> If not, I'm not interested."
> RD
>
> I have two answers to this question. The short answer is: You cannot bend
> hole 7 blow down a semitone in a 30 reed harmonica in the design of a SUB
> 30, or an MB 30, or MB 30 S.
>
> If you want a harmonica in a Richter tuning that allows you to bend down
> hole 7, the XB 40 is the only one I know about that lets you do that.
>
> If that is the only thing you are interested in, you can stop reading now….
>
> For me, badass blues harp tone and my ability to shape that tone directly
> with my breath and my hands, is more important than having multiple options
> for playing chromatic runs.
>
> Here is the rest of the story:
>
> When it comes to choosing options for playing chromatically on the
> harmonica, there are 5 main things I can think of to focus on:
>
> - the notes available and the techniques you need to play these notes
>
> - the overall tone of the instrument
>
> - the amount of control you have over bending notes and the shades of
> pitch you have available
>
> - the amount of control you have over shaping the tone of the notes you
> are playing
>
> - The complexity of the instrument - number of moving parts, and the
> amount of things that you need to tune, adjust and maintain
>
> If the only thing you are interested in is the ability to bend all notes,
> the XB 40 allows you to do that. Because it has 40 reeds, and the pairs of
> reeds for bending blow notes and draw notes are completely separated, you
> can also tune the enabler reeds down to allow you to bend any note as far
> as you want to. So if you want to bend down 3 half steps everywhere, (or
> more) - you can do that.
>
> The XB 40 has a mouthpiece that directs the air stream into a chamber that
> has valves that open or close pairs of reeds in additional separate
> chambers. It has 20 wind-saver valves, 2 for each hole. One valve directs
> the airstream into the blow reed chamber and the other valve directs the
> air stream through the draw reed chamber.
>
> So instead of one chamber with all the reeds in it you have three
> chambers. One chamber that has the wind saver valves and two other chambers
> with pairs of reeds.
>
> This system creates a different overall tone compared to the traditional
> diatonic harmonica.
>
> My reference point for "the traditional diatonic harmonica tone" is the
> Marine Band harmonica. In other words, how much does the harmonica sound
> and feel like a Marine Band?
>
> The XB 40 is a lot larger than a Marine Band, it feels a lot different and
> it sounds different. I can't control the hand effects as well as I can on a
> smaller harmonica, so I don't have the range of tone that I have on a
> Marine Band.
>
> I play the XB 40 at times for Celtic Music and in some other situations.
>
> But for stone blues, I play Marine Bands and Super 64x harmonicas 99% of
> the time.
>
> Why can't you bend hole #7 blow down in a SUB 30 or MB 30?
>
> First you need to understand that the SUB 30 and MB 30 have one chamber
> with three reeds.  Two of the reeds are tuned like the standard richter
> tuning layout. The third reed is lower in pitch than the lowest of the
> other two reeds and allows you to bend that note down with the sound and
> control you use for double reed bends.
>
> OK, time out, take a deep breath and then we will continue...
>
> In order to keep the rest of this article simple, I will describe a 30
> reed, 20 valve harmonica. In other words, not a stock SUB 30. The stock SUB
> 30 uses reeds pushed into slots to make them resist playing when you don't
> want them to play. So you have two different ways to isolate pairs of reeds
> - valves and reeds pushed into slots.
>
> A 30 reed 20 valve harmonica has more parts, but is easier to describe,
> because the pairs of reeds are isolated by the same thing: valves.
>
> The new X reed harmonicas are 30 reed, 20 valve harmonicas. So are the MB
> 30 and MB 30 S.
>
> so in hole 1 of a 3 reed harmonica in the key of C you have:
>
> 1. A reed tuned to D as the main draw reed
>
> 2. A reed tuned to C as the main blow reed.
>
> 3. A third reed tuned to Bb that is the "extra reed" that allows you to
> bend the C reed down to the note B.
>
> 4. Two wind saver valves that isolate pairs of reeds. When you play draw
> notes, you isolate the D and C reeds and can bend down to Db. When you play
> blow notes you isolate the C and Bb reeds and can bend down to B.
>
> You are using the C reed when you blow or draw - it also allows you to
> bend down the D reed, and serves as the starting pitch for the blow note.
>
> The C and D reeds are the notes in the main note layout. The Bb reed is
> the extra reed that allows the additional bend down from C.
>
> You can re-tune the extra reed or third reed and change the bending range
> of the instrument without changing the note layout.
>
> You can't change the other two reeds without changing the note layout of
> the instrument.
>
> This is the reason why in a 30 reed richter tuned harmonica, you can't
> increase the bending range of blow 7 without changing the note layout of
> the instrument.
>
> In that hole the extra reed or third reed changes the draw bend, not the
> blow bend.
>
> You get the same bends that you can get in a standard Richter tuned 20
> reed harmonica. If you want to change these traditional bends, you need to
> do the same thing you do with standard 20 reed diatonic: change the note
> layout.
>
> You also get a series of bends that are not available on the standard 20
> hole diatonic harmonica. You can change the range of these bands by
> re-tuning the extra reeds or third reeds, When you do this you DO NOT
> change the note layout.
>
> To review:
>
> If you want bad ass blues tone typical of the Marine Band, you need a
> harmonica that is as close to the design of a Marine Band as possible.  The
> Marine Band has two reeds in one chamber for each hole.
>
> The next closest thing to this that allows chromatic playing is three
> reeds in one chamber for each hole.
>
> To completely isolate pairs of reeds for bending, you also need two valves
> in each hole.
>
> There is one way to get an extended bending range for Blow 7 in a Marine
> Band type harmonica:
>
> 4 reeds with 4 valves for each hole. This is the only way I know of to
> completely isolate pairs of reeds in a single chamber. This design was
> originally patented by Rick Epping.
>
> You could build your very own version of this harmonica with chromatic
> harmonica reed plates, Rick Epping's first patent as a map, and a good
> machine shop. You probably could do this in a couple years in your spare
> time for about the price of a complete set of MB-30 S harmonicas, less if
> you own the machine shop or you are really good at this sort of thing.
>  This is just a guess...
>
> So it is possible to build a diatonic harmonica with 4 reeds per single
> chamber per hole, but you now have 40 reeds and 40 valves.
>
> So here are the options:
>
> - standard 10 hole diatonic harmonica - 20 reeds 10 holes, no wind-saver
> valves.
>
> - stock SUB 30 - 10 holes, 30 reeds, 10 wind-saver valves
>
> - x reed SUB 30 - 10 holes, 30 reeds, 20 wind-saver valves
>
> - MB 30, MB 30-S - 10 holes, 30 reeds, 20 wind-saver valves Plus reed
> plates from Marine Band harmonicas.
>
> - The theoretical 40 reed 40 windsaver valve harmonica that does not exist
> yet because it would be a lot more expensive and complicated than any of
> the other options…..
>
> To me, adding 10 more reeds and doubling the number of wind saver valves
> to be able to bend the blow note on hole 7 down a half step or more on a
> richter tuned diatonic is not worth it.
>
> But I would love it if someone could prove me wrong on this point….
>
> Thanks for your interest in this project!
>
> Richard Sleigh
>
> Http://HotRodHarmonicas.com
> Http://RSleigh.com
>
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