RE: [Harp-L] positions you can use on diatonic

[Buck Worley <boogalloo@xxxxxxx>]

Honestly Michael, I get what you are saying. It is refreshing to see that you have "tuff skin" and that is truly a mark of someone who has been in the music biz for real. I respect that. I know that what you were demonstrating was possibilities for the future of the harmonica. I get it. However in real world application I know of only a few players who employ this concept with really good execution. Case in point is one of my all time favorite harp solos, Norton B in Bonnie R's version of Runaway. A clear application of "who cares what position, it just sounds really good". I have seen folks on this site boo hoo NB for slop style. I just like that particular cut.
As far as the "position" discussion, I NEVER talk about what position or mode or what harp I choose. I just try to find the right ax for achieving what feel I want to add. Many times I play a minor mode over the major etc and it works and sound great when in good taste and knowing music theory is essential as you have demonstrated.
I used to played with (sorry to drop names) Warren Haynes who really inspired me to learn about modes. Warren created modes by playing modal scales over other scales. Grammy Award winner Pianist Dick Tunney who I have worked with a LOT does the same. I sometimes tell him "let's get mixolydian" and he always says "I don't know what that is" and just start playing what he called black style. He is such a joker, I know he really knows what I am communicating. I never knew what position he or Warren were playing on their instrument and did not care but it came across as a mode being played against another mode.
To all who who are trying to determine position vs modes, positions pertain to the instrument, modes pertain to the music, IMHO.
And, I think you mis-quoted me as saying "always". And yes, I remember when I could not play very well and further more I do not consider myself as a great player but I HAVE done some stuff that I am very proud of.
Best regards,Buckwww.pancaketurnerblues.com  (our crappy little web site that never gets updated)I am on facebook too...I hate FB

> Date: Mon, 2 Apr 2012 11:30:21 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Harp-L] positions you can use on diatonic
> From: michaelrubinharmonica@xxxxxxxxx
> To: boogalloo@xxxxxxx
> CC: icemanle@xxxxxxx; ndavid.coulson@xxxxxxxxx; harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx
> 
> Buck,
> At the very beginning of the video I define it as a parlor trick.
> However, I disagree with you about this approach to the harmonica
> always being in bad taste.  It depends of the position, it depends on
> the style of music and it depends on the player.  But most of all, it
> depends on the development of the player or on the development of the
> collective harmonica community.
> 
> Remember when you first began learning harmonica?  Even playing
> straight harp melodies you probably were not very good. Then, remember
> your first year of improvising in cross harp?  Even Jason Ricci has
> put out a video of him playing in high school and it showed he was not
> very advanced as a player.  Well, this is the stage I was at five
> years ago when I made that video.  I still had a long way to go in
> playing in all 12 keys tastefully.  To be honest, I've become
> interested in other things and do not practice it much at all anymore.
> 
> HOWEVER, if we consider all harmonica players as a collective
> organism, my explorations might have been some of the first to bring a
> multitude of players to the awareness of the possibility of playing a
> diatonic fully chromatically.  Clearly there are many more players
> today playing much more tastefully in all 12 keys. Look at Flip Jers
> recent video of playing one harp in 8 keys.  Consider Konstantin
> playing in F# on a C harp.   25 years from now it is going to be a
> totally different story.  I predict a large amount of players being
> able to do this.
> 
> Obviously Howard Levy and others had much more to do with this
> advancement than I do.  However, if I made one player interested in
> the possibility, even just to show he was much better than I and that
> player creates tasteful methods of playing in all 12 keys on a
> diatonic and makes many more people aware of how to do it until a
> multitude of people are able to do it tastefully, then I propose my
> pie in the sky junk was ultimately a very tasteful pie indeed.
> 
> What I am saying is SOMEONE has got to DO something, even if he does
> it badly, for anything to progress.
> 
> By the way, Buck, I would love for you to check out my CD so you are
> aware of some of the other music I do.  Send me your address and I
> will send you a copy.  I hope you will find it tasty.  Similiarly, I
> would love to hear some of yours.
> Michael Rubin
> Michaelrubinharmonica.com
> 
> On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 10:27 AM, Buck Worley <boogalloo@xxxxxxx> wrote:
> >
> > What about sub-modes ie dorian vs sub-dorian ie doria on diatonic vs dorian on chromo and on and on
> > What I think is the bottom line is TASTE. Good taste vs bad taste. If a person wants to demonstrate that something can be done does not mean it will come off with tastefulness. Oh yes, the fact that one can go through the math and be technically correct does NOT mean that what comes out the other end will sound good on a harmonica. If playing in all 12 keys on one harmonica is considered a tasteful thing then I am going to gag myself with a spoon. This is Micheal R just showing off his respected wealth of music theory applied to an instrument that is very limited in the real world. Pie in the sky junk that just does not work on harmonica with good taste. The video definitely demonstrates this.
> > Buck Worley
> >
> >> To: ndavid.coulson@xxxxxxxxx; harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx
> >> Subject: Re: [Harp-L] positions you can use on diatonic
> >> From: icemanle@xxxxxxx
> >> Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 22:53:18 -0400
> >> CC:
> >>
> >> sounds like you are getting it, at least from my understanding of the definitions used by Michael.
> >>
> >>
> >> Position playing on harmonica (1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc) can be related to the modes or not, depending on your skill in creating notes through bending techniques. If I play 3rd position on a "C" harmonica, I am playing in the key of "D". Now, if I just play in the mid range of the diatonic w/out using any bending techniques, it can be described as the dorian mode in the key of "D". If I substitute 5 hole inhale with 5 hole overblow, now I am playing a mixolydian mode in "D". If I add a 7 hole overdraw, it becomes ionian mode in the key of "D".
> >>
> >>
> >> All of these can be considered 3rd position playing, although most may consider 3rd position playing on diatonic to be that minor sounding dorian mode. So, if your skills are good, you can fool the average harmonica player to a point where it might be difficult for them to figure out where you are on the harmonica or they assume you are using a non-richter tuned one. (I pulled this type of playing on Phil Wiggins at Augusta Heritage during an evening jam. He grabbed the harmonica out of my hand to see if it was altered as he couldn't figure out how I did what I did).
> >>
> >>
> >> This is a bit of an advanced approach using advanced techniques, so here is where position and modes overlap, in a sense.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: ndavid.coulson <ndavid.coulson@xxxxxxxxx>
> >> To: harp-l <harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx>
> >> Cc: michael rubin <michaelrubinharmonica@xxxxxxxxx>; The Iceman <icemanle@xxxxxxx>
> >> Sent: Sat, Mar 31, 2012 10:13 am
> >> Subject: Re: [Harp-L] positions you can use on diatonic
> >>
> >>
> >> I'm trying to understand this myself. Is there a difference between "playing in positions", where, for example, on a C harp you play the notes of the C scale but starting with the root note of G (Mixolydian mode of C), and playing in the KEY of G on a C harp? Maybe Michael is describing the former and Larry is describing the latter. In other words, when playing positionally aren't you primarily using and emphasizing all the notes of the 1st position (major) scale regardless of what position you're playing in, which is what creates distinctive sound of the mode? Whereas when you play in a key, you're adding the sharps and flats that enable you to play a major (or minor) scale in that particular key, regardless of the key of the harp you're playing. Please tell me if this is wrong. I'm not sure if my grasp of music theory is correct!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> David
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mar 30, 2012, at 3:56 PM, harp-l-request@xxxxxxxxxx wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Larry,
> >> This time I disagree with you.  Is the band playing in a key, at least
> >> for a portion of the song?  Are you using a richter diatonic harp?
> >> Then you are playing in a position.  Position are numbered by the
> >> relationship of the key the band is playing in to the name of the harp
> >> as measured by the amount of times moved clockwise in the circle of
> >> fifths.  No amount of saying "I've moved a little past positions" can
> >> change that you play in positions . . .
> >>
> >>
> >> Michael Rubin
> >> Michaelrubinharmonica.com
> >> http://youtu.be/aCbDxn5a3xI
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 9:19 AM, The Iceman <icemanle@xxxxxxx> wrote:
> >>
> >> Pretty much depends on the individual.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I can, but find certain positions to be not too useful for most scenarios.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> In a way, I've moved a little past "position" and just go for the notes that I need wherever they may live.
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