Re: [Harp-L] Re: positions you can use on diatonic

[Cara Cooke <cyberharp@xxxxxxxxx>]

Brendan Power said it very well.  To me, though, it seems like JersiMuse is
not getting it.  It may just be our varied musical experiences.

*"To my opinion, if positions only refer to root notes, they are useless,
and the note name is a much better and precise information. Especially when
you communicate with other people from the band, who are usually not
harmonica players. I'm surprised that harmonica players so much feel the
need to use a separate vocabulary, enabling them to better communicate with
other harmonica players, and complicates their communication with other
musicians. Whereas, to my opinion, playing music should mainly be the
encounter of different instruments."*

So far, I haven't learned or been around an instrument whose players do not
have their own vocabulary with regards to communication with other players
of the same instrument.  They may not talk that way to you when you are on
a different instrument, but they will to each other.  I also seldom hear
anyone talk "positions" on harmonica to another player who is not also a
harmonica player, unless first asked specifically to do so.  When playing
with other musicians, you may have your own shorthand communication that
works with them or you may speak plainly in music theory, but not all
communication techniques will be useful -- so it is best to learn how to
speak and understand many of the different systems.  To me, this is part of
the seasoning of a musician.  As a harmonica player, knowing about
positions is very useful.  As a beginning lesson regarding positions, it
can be very helpful to know that certain positions natively lend themselves
to certain emotionally charged scales, or modes, without the need to bend
notes.  They make very good starting points.  If you don't wish to talk
about positions to another harmonica player, fine, but they haven't
out-lived their usefulness or gone away.  The concepts are still important,
even if you use a different reference system to discuss them.

*"BTW, I'll let you just think about one point.  For most musicians, a note
is at the same time a name AND a position (position of fingers, toungue,
lips, etc). Still most musicians name their position by the name of the
note it gives.  Of course, most of musicians can not change their
instrument's key at a glimpse.  It is still interesting to know that some
harp players do think all 4 draw as being a D, on all harps, instead of "a
third position". Like most musicians not playing a C instrument do (sax,
trumpet, etc)."
*
With all due respect, if you ask a sax player to tell you what note he just
played and he says it was an Eb, you need next to know if he gave it to you
in "concert".  Brass players can get the same note using different
positions or fingerings, so they never would refer to the note they played
by the position or fingering, or vice versa, unless they were talking to
someone playing the same instrument, or to a leader who might be trying to
coordinate everyone's intonation.  However, two french horn players might
debate whether the open E or the 1&2E was the better choice.  When they do,
they are not talking "concert".  They are talking "french horn".  If a
banjo player calls for everyone to move to "2" (or holds two fingers up),
he is typically trying to get everyone into the key of A.  (His capo is on
the 2nd fret.)  If the group is music theory oriented and sufficiently
varied in types of instruments, then holding two finders up may mean the
key of D (concert).  If a guitar player holds up four fingers, he most
likely means the key of B.  His instrument is "concert", but he is telling
the group that he has moved his capo to the 4th fret.  (Unless the guitar
player is a flat-picker, B is the most common key played from the 4th
fret.  It really helps to know about the people with whom you are playing
music and the instruments they are playing.)  Across our southern border,
keys are called by their vocal names (with a slight adjustment for
dialect).  If "sol" is called, you will be playing in the key of G.  If you
hold two fingers up for the key of "re", it may be taken as an insult.  In
one band, we all knew some basic American sign language, so we called the
keys by their roots (by hand) with a flair that indicated sharp or flat.
It worked well, but it only worked for that group.  Other people weren't
willing to take the time to remember the seven sign language signs when
they already had a method of communication that worked for them.

Overall, it has to be agreed upon by those in the group in what "language"
communication is to take place or confusion will ensue.  Communication is
dependent upon the audience.  You all have to speak the same language.
This is a harmonica list, so "positions" is in the lexicon.  It is most
useful, if you wish to understand or be understood, that you learn as many
varieties of these different communication styles as possible so that you
will be ready to enable communication on your part when necessary.

*"Positions are not mandatory and are limited, classical music theory is
not mandatory neither, but it is not much more difficult to be learnt and
it has
proven for centuries to be unlimited."
*
For the purpose of the discussion regarding positions (which have
corresponding roots), positions are as limited as music theory (12 notes,
12 positions).  It is simply a reference to enable communication that is
based upon the instrument.  Music Theory serves a broader, more separate
purpose and has evolved to suit it.  The root for the position is the
"Rosetta Stone" reference to music theory.  The fact is harmonica is just
short of 200 years old and we are only now really learning what it can do
and how to improve it.  Our references may change over time, but they will
remain instrument specific until we have to talk to musicians who don't
play harmonica.

Music Theory references may not always suffice for some of these instrument
references, either, by the way -- in terminology or in notation.  For
example, in fiddle, a shuffle is a specific technique with specific bowing
patterns to achieve specific purposes.  Violinists do not typically learn
the basic fiddle shuffle.  When they are asked to play a piece in which the
composer has inserted these fiddle techniques, they tend to work themselves
to death trying to get them to sound right, and they always sound stiff.
The composer only has the limitations of music notation to work with when
writing a shuffle and a violinist will tend to read it a certain way.
However, a fiddler will see the same notation, recognize the pattern, and
make the intuitive leap that the composer means for the violin to play a
shuffle.  The violin family is a very old instrument family, yet music
theory can only compensate for so much in its notation to communicate what
the composer desires should be played.  The rest is left up to
interpretation by the musician.

If you were to look at music theory and music notation, you would find that
it has been evolving for centuries.  It creates a sort of language to help
musicians talk to one another, but it isn't perfect yet.  It is still
evolving.  It is still "theory".  Ultimately, a language has to be shared
before it can serve as effective communication.  So, if both musicians do
not know the same elements in music theory, they don't
communicate.  Especially in the root/folk music forms, it is common for the
musician to not be up on his music theory past the bits he needs to know to
do his job well.  So, now you are back to communicating in some specialized
form that suits the situation, like positions and numbers and signals.

cara

On Mon, Apr 2, 2012 at 9:01 AM, JersiMuse <jersimuse@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> It was not a total coincidence from me.
>
> It may surprise you Brendan, but I totally agree on most of your points.
>
> I would just like to precise few things to conclude my own remarks.
>
> To my opinion, if positions only refer to root notes, they are useless, and
> the note name is a much better and precise information.
> Especially when you communicate with other people from the band, who are
> usually not harmonica players.
> I'm surprised that harmonica players so much feel the need to use a
> separate
> vocabulary, enabling them to better communicate with other harmonica
> players, and complicates their communication with other musicians. Whereas,
> to my opinion, playing music should mainly be the encounter of different
> instruments.
>
> Anyway.
> I agree on the fact that all this is new, and becomes complicated to
> manipulate when arriving to chromatism.
> And this is exactly the point.
> Positions are great when they are used the way they were expressed to
> explain harmonica playing until the 80's / 90's. I mean playing common
> licks, without chromatism, worked out before hand, and exploited on tunes
> which have a single key, and most of the time a single mode.
> It works but it is totally empiric and disconnected from the music theory.
> Or you can see it the other way around : it is totally empiric and
> disconnected from any music theory but it works, which is the most
> important.
> Why not. It can be very useful that way.
>
> But in that case, and I would say "by definition", it won't work when you
> derivate from the inner configuration.
> So it is limited to a specific use.
> First, one should not try to connect positions to any kind of logical
> theory. It can not work because it has been developed to avoid it (and if
> it
> was possible, then why not use the inner theory).
> Second, if you incorporate chromatism, and different specific needs of
> sound
> colors, ambiances, you'll have to go forward on scales anyway.
> Not speaking about playing a parallel harmony suite than the one played by
> the band ...
>
>
> At the end, I have begun the harmonica with positions and switched to keys
> and scales because I needed them to play the music I wanted to play.
> And my personal conclusion is that it is much easier to learn the basis of
> music theory from the beginning, than trying to understand a concept which
> is only empiric.
>
>
> BTW, I'll let you just think about one point.
> For most musicians, a note is at the same time a name AND a position
> (position of fingers, toungue, lips, etc). Still most musicians name their
> position by the name of the note it gives.
> Of course, most of musicians can not change their instrument's key at a
> glimpse.
> It is still interesting to know that some harp players do think all 4 draw
> as being a D, on all harps, instead of "a third position". Like most
> musicians not playing a C instrument do (sax, trumpet, etc).
>
> Last but not least.
> All my remarks are totally absurd as, as explained in my first email, I
> only
> play on a C harp, which means I don't need all this philosophy :-)
> And this is where I wanted to end : all depends on your needs !
> One have to think what he needs to be able to play the music he loves,
> knowing the strengths and weaknesses of each tool, and decide which one is
> better for him.
> Positions are not mandatory and are limited, classical music theory is not
> mandatory neither, but it is not much more difficult to be learnt and it
> has
> proven for centuries to be unlimited.
>
> Thanks all who had the patience to read my emails whereas I guess most of
> you disagree with my "position" :-)
> I hope it was interesting anyway.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Jerome
> www.youtube.com/JersiMuse
>
>
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : harp-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxx [mailto:harp-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxx] De la
> part
> de Brendan Power
> Envoyé : lundi 2 avril 2012 12:14
> À : harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx
> Objet : [Harp-L] Re: positions you can use on diatonic
>
> JersiMuse inadvertently highlighted the essence of positions when he wrote:
>
>
>
> ".if positions are related to modes, then the whole system doesn't work.
> But
> if positions are not related to modes, and only give the root compared to
> the harp used, then, what is their utility?"
>
>
>
> That's got it right there: that IS their utility! What does "Position"
> mean?
> It means a place, a place related to other places. In harmonica terms, it's
> a hole/breath/bend place on the harp. Jersi highlighted its function: the
> word "Position" should only refer to the root note's place, or position, on
> the harp - not the name of the note, or the mode or scale that starts
> there.
>
>
>
> Take Third Position, as this seems the most contentious. The root notes of
> Third Position are found on holes 1, 4 and 8 draw, no matter what harmonica
> you use. We all agree on that! If that happens to be the key note of the
> song you're playing, you can say you're playing the song in Third Position.
>
>
>
> HOWEVER, what scale or mode of Third Position you use depends on what's
> appropriate for the music you're playing. Commonly Third is played as a
> minor scale, because that's what lays easiest. But you can play Third as a
> major, and there are well over a hundred other scales you could use in that
> position if you have the interest and technique to do so. Some will lay
> easier than others.
>
>
>
> So it's up to the player to say what Third Position mode they're using.
> "I'm
> in Third Position Major/Minor/Wholetone/Raag Bhairav.." Or whatever.
>
>
>
> The confusion has arisen because the names Second, Third, Fourth etc relate
> to the home key of the harp, called First Position by harp players. Other
> scales starting on different root notes (if played with unaltered notes on
> the harp) can be given modal names (Mixolydian, Dorian, Aeolian etc). But
> that only gives you seven modes (or 'natural' positions). As soon as you
> introduce chromaticism through bending/overblowing the whole system needs
> to
> be refined.
>
>
>
> But this is relatively new. For a long time positions like Third, Fourth,
> Fifth were ONLY played as minor keys, and others (eg. First) only as major
> keys. That meant the scale used got identified with the position of its
> root
> note - hence the confusion!
>
>
>
> With advances in technique that's changing, and many players are now able
> to
> play other scales within the same position. So now (in addition to the key
> of the harp) both the position and scale used need to be stated if someone
> asks what you are doing.
>
>
>
> However the concept of position as a PLACE on the harp named after the
> circle of fifths derived from First Position is still useful. For example,
> 3
> draw semitone-bend is the starting note for Eleventh Position. That's a
> useful notion for the player and anyone he's talking to, because it
> describes its root position on the harp. But it has nothing to do with the
> name of the note found there is or the scale used: those depend on the harp
> used and the discretion of the player in relation to the music being
> played.
>
>
>
> Brendan Power
>
> WEBSITE: www.brendan-power.com <http://www.brendan-power.com/>
>
> YOUTUBE: www.youtube.com/BrendanPowerMusic
>
>
>
>
>