Re: [Harp-L] Combs Combs Combs

[The Iceman <icemanle@xxxxxxx>]

y'know, if the player perceives that his tone is better using a certain comb, his belief makes it so.





-----Original Message-----
From: MARK BURNESS <markwjburness@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: Robert Hale <robert@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>; Matthew Smart <matthewsmart@xxxxxxxxx>
Cc: Harp <harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sun, May 22, 2011 4:16 am
Subject: Re: [Harp-L] Combs Combs Combs


I'm sure, well I know, that players all over the world have anecdotal stories 
like Matt's. Video recording the event wouldn't simply be a test of whether the 
benefits were tangible, but also a test of the recorder's abilities.

Music & the tone poduced by musical instruments has traditionally been evaluated 

by human ears & experience. If you don't trust your ears should you be playing 
music in the first place? Music is more than having good relative pitch...what's 

the machine called that registers timbre, expression, virtuosity? Ever seen one 
at a gig?

I have changed combs in harps, as have many people, to find that I preferred the 

sound of one "material" over another
...but whether that preference was purely down to the material or not, is very 
hard to say. Harps of the same key, of the same construction sound 
different...the human ability to hold one sound in the memory then compare to a 
sound heard, even a few minutes later, is not a skill that everyone is born 
with, it takes  lot of experience and even then you might only be able to focus 
on/detect one aspect that you find sonically pleasing, or otherwise. It is 
usually necessary to conduct instantaneous A/B tests, we're not good at 
remembering sounds as a species (unlike taste, or smell)...which point might, 
for some, might render the whole issue somewhat moot! ;-)

I take Matt's account in the spirit in which it is offered, "this is what we 
did, this is what we heard, on this occasion"...I wasn't there (like Robert) to 
agree/disagree (in the same vein, Vern's data from his test is published and 
there is no reason to doubt the integrity of the responses he received...apart 
from the 2010 test, wher one subject seemed to misunderstand the test completely 

and influenced the other subjects), so the jury is still out out. I'm not in the 

skeptics camp, nor in the camp of the "true believers".

I am always surprised however when skeptics try and point to a "machine" that 
will "prove" the decision for them. If a difference was to be percieved to be so 

small that it onlt registered on, say an FFT, then it can't be considered a 
tangible difference. On the other hand if people report a first hand acccount 
that cannot be backed up by a machine, then there is always the possibility that 

the machine is not up to the job, or that the test is flawed. Sometimes we can 
measure what we can hear, sometimes we can measure what we can't hear, sometimes 

we can hear what can't be accurately measured (not without significant resources 

and a universally acceptable test methodology). 


When you sit in a restaurant and someone asks, "how is your meal", "68 degrees 
celsuis" is not really the answer they are looking for.

Sensory testing is conducted every day, with thousands of test subjects around 
the world, it's big business and responses drive multi million pound markets & 
decisions...human senses/experiences are what the "data" is based on. Should a 
manufacturechange a product because it has been proven to them that this 
"right", whatever the mechanically arrived at data says, if units stop moving 
off the store shelves, then ultimately that change s "wrong". Musical instrument 

manufacturers build instruments to make turnover and profit (in short, to give 
people what they want), not to test the limits of scientific endeavor.

Another thing to consider that most folks buy harps as they come from the 
factory, in most models you do not have the option of just simply changing the 
comb, if a player compared a Marine Band 1896 with a Special 20 and a 
Meisterclass, there is every possibility that he might prefer the "wood", 
"plastic" or "aluminium" harp...again whether the comb material is the issue is 
moot in this example as the harps are different in more than one respect. The 
idea of making bespoke combs to prove/disprove the point takes such a test out 
of the bounds of a "real world" meaningful test.

"For the believers no proof is necessary, for the non-believers no proof is 
possible".



________________________________
From: Robert Hale <robert@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: Matthew Smart <matthewsmart@xxxxxxxxx>
Cc: Harp <harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Sunday, 22 May, 2011 5:50:35
Subject: Re: [Harp-L] Combs Combs Combs

Hi Matt,

I'm one of the skeptics.

I wonder, if someone video-recorded a controlled A-B test (like your store
experiment) do you believe we could hear the difference? Or is it
best perceived live, and not so well noticed when recorded?

A valid test could be replicated by another, and obtain similar results.

The problem with "comb-wars" <grin> is that we discuss tone, but not often
player comfort. I liked SP20s for years, and now play all Lee Oskars.

But, I'm willing to be persuaded with good evidence.

Stay well
Play well

Robert Hale is the DUKE of WAIL
Distance Learning via Webcam
http://www.dukeofwail.com
Gilbert AZ (Phoenix)