Re: [Harp-L] Re: Equal Temperament

I use ET tuned harps but then mainly play single notes and use a lot of chromaticism which wouldn't really work with JI. But some things probably do sound better with it - maybe it's good to have both?

Bill


----- Original Message ----- From: "John F. Potts" <hvyj@xxxxxxx>
To: <jazmaan@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Cc: <harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Monday, April 05, 2010 6:47 AM
Subject: [Harp-L] Re: Equal Temperament


Everything you say is pretty much correct. I do not disagree, except on a couple of points.

First, i do not feel handicapped not playing chords. I am able to express myself and play what the music requires without using chords. Personally, I don't like how chords sound played on a harp no matter how it's tuned. i didn't play many chords even before i started using ET harps exclusively. it's a stylistic thing.

Second, if you play split interval octaves you get a third IN TUNE difference tone or "ghost note" whether the harp is ET, JI or compromise. I also get ghost notes from other split intervals which sound pretty decent, but, as you say, won't be as in tune sounding as those produced by a JI harp. That is definitely an advantage of playing a JI harp--but the corresponding disadvantage is all the flat scale tones, and I think we generally tend to play more scale tones than difference tones. So, one way or the other there is a trade off. Pick your poison I guess. But, yes, there are better ghost notes produced playing JI. No doubt about it.

You know, I don't OB, and when i play classic blues material, i think of it as playing classic blues even though I'm not playing them the way they were recorded. I guess it's a matter of semantics. I give it my own interpretation and play the way i feel, but i certainly don't compare myself to a great artist like Jimi Hendrix. I'm not on that level and don't pretend to be.

And, yes, Pat Missin's site is very instructive. Great stuff.

JP


On Apr 5, 2010, at 1:11 AM, David Fairweather wrote:

The bullet mic is optional for what I was trying to describe. The approach you outlined is perfectly valid if you're trying to play something OTHER than classic diatonic blues. By your own account, you frequently hear players say "Boy I ain't never heard nobody play blues like that before!" So almost by definition you're NOT playing classic blues. That's not neceesarily a bad or a good thing. I'm sure they said the same thing to Jimi Hendrix, so if you're trying to blaze your own path go right ahead.

But by your own account you always avoid playing chords. So right away you've got a bit of a handicap.

I do want to point out that the advantage of a Just Intoned harp doesn't require a chord. (To me a chord is at least 3 notes.) No, the power of a Just Intoned harp is that you only need to play 2 simultaneous notes for the Just Intonation to create a perfectly tuned THIRD note, thereby creating a chord. A skilled player can manipulate, bend and play off that 3rd ghost note to powerful advantage. The classic example being the Seigel-Schwall hit "Hush Hush" with its crowd pleasing ghost note special effects. And even if you're not trying to manipulate that ghost note, just the fact that its there and in tune makes your sound FAT and that's a good thing!

That's something you'll never be able to do effectively on an Equal Temperment harp.

Just as important as the IN-tune ghost notes is the fact that with Just Intonation you eliminate the OUT-of-tune ghost notes. Although you personally may studiously avoid playing chords, many less accomplished players will blithely chug away on their Lee Oskars or other Equal Temperament harps either oblivious to the out- of-tune ghost grunge they're generating or blaming it on the amp or the microphone.


--- On Sun, 4/4/10, John F. Potts <hvyj@xxxxxxx> wrote:

From: John F. Potts <hvyj@xxxxxxx>
Subject: Equal Temperament
To: dmf273@xxxxxxxxx
Cc: harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx
Date: Sunday, April 4, 2010, 9:15 PM
Per David Fairweather:

All it takes is a bullet mic, a distortable amp and
somebody who knows what they're doing and ANYBODY can hear
the difference.....

So even if your a master of advanced position play,
why wouldn't you also carry a Just Intoned harp in your bag
for times when the music calls for it?   If
you're sitting in with a classic blues band at a biker bar
and the band breaks into "Born in Chicago", is that really
the situation when want to show off your 12th position chops
on an Equal Termperament harp?

Per Chris "Hammer" Smith:

Well, the minor blues scale calls for a significantly
lowered b3rd  b5th , and b7th so ( EG, in 2nd pos. on C
harp, key of G I play 3rd hole draw half step bend Bb @ 432
cents).Playing at normal concert A 440 pitches won't sound
"ballzy". This is why the Marine Band has been the blues
harp of choice for so long.

Gentleman:

Well, taking fjm's suggestion that i "work my own program",
this is how I approach the situations you guys describe and
why:  First of all, personally, I don't use a bullet
mic.  For this kind of music (Chicago blues) I use a
545 Ultimate and when I want dirt, I tight cup the mic and
hold the face of the harp in close proximity of the grill of
the mic and I get a more than adequate amount of ballsy,
gritty distortion if and when i want it.  Also, my
harps are tuned to A442 and i have no problems with
intonation.  The  pitch tends to flatten a little
under breath pressure as the harp is played, even w/o
deliberate bends.

Playing major key blues, you may want a "blue" third
(quarter tone bend) a true minor third, a flatter than true
minor third or sometimes a major third.  Same
variations for the bends on the flat fifth.  Sevenths
are generally  played a true half step flat or flatter
than that.  No problem--I BEND for these blue note
variations as needed. And it's easier for me to bend to the
pitch i want using an ET harp in SECOND position because I'm
starting with a draw note at true concert pitch, not one
that's raised or lowered several cents. So, since i have an
accurate starting point, i can put the bend at the pitch i
want it to be at accurately--or not so accurately as the
case may be, since a certain imprecision is part of the
aesthetic of Chicago blues.

I play plenty of down and dirty Chicago style blues in
SECOND position, and have regularly played with authentic
blues players who are usually black, often originally from
the deep South (U.S.), and I seem to consistently do just
fine w/my ET harps.  The comment i usually get from
these guys is something like "Boy, i ain't never heard
nobody play blues like that--you got your own style."
But no one has ever complained that what i play is not blues
nor do i ever hear that I don't "play right" which is the
term generally used by these guys for someone who doesn't
play authentic blues.  i function effectively in a deep
blues environment w/ my ET harps, because I DON'T PLAY
CHORDS.  I may play some split interval double stops in
lieu of chords and which actually have a very full and big
sound.  i know some players claim these split intervals
sound "rough" on an ET harp, but that has not been my
experience.  Now, i primarily LP, but when i move to TB
for split intervals, i shift the face (holes) of the harp
deeper into my mouth past my teeth which fattens and deepens
the tone somewhat and probably smoothes out the sound.

So,  if i'm playing with some authentic blues players
who want to do "Can't Lose What You Never Had" "Got My Mojo
Working" "Sweet Home Chicago" "Walkin' by Myself" or similar
material (I've never actually heard an all black blues band
call "Born in Chicago" to be played on stage, but if you
have, i'll take your word for it), I'll play my ET harps in
second position, bend living hell out of them, avoid playing
chords, and fit right in. And if they want to play some Otis
Rush minor blues (which are in a NATURAL minor key), I'll
play Fifth Position for that--on my ET harps, of
course--which works perfectly.

I'm not claiming that this is the only way to do it by any
means.  But this how i do it and this is why i don't
carry anything but ET harps to use for playing down and
dirty electric blues in SECOND position.

FWIW,

JP




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