Re: [Harp-L] tuning - piano octaves stretched

[David Payne <dmatthew@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

I think this is how harmonicas are already tuned and EQ chords sound like crap even with it. I know when I tune a harmonica, it is tuned this way. When you tune by ear, that's just how it turns out. You tune the 1 blow to your reference pitch, then tune the 1-2-3 blow for the C chord. From there you tune the four blow so there is no beating when you play it and the 1 blow at the same time. Same with the 2 and 5. The draw plate is a little more tricky, but similar process. 
Seydel diatonics are tuned like this and as far as I know Herings are too. Also Hohner. I would consider, at first glance, a diatonic tuned without octaves to be a piece of junk in need of a good tuning.
One thing I've noticed, harmonicas tend to sound even better when the octave tuning is pushed. By that I mean, there is not one specific point where octaves will not beat, but a window. This window decreases in noticeable tuning elbow room as you go higher in pitch. When you hit that perfect point of octaveness, the sound is really clean. You push it to the point where it almost starts to beat, or makes a beat every eight seconds or so- which is not a noticeable beat unless you're looking for it - the sound of the octave notes is fuller. When you get up high, say the 7 and 10 blow, that window is so small there's not a lot of wiggle room and you basically either hit the beat free point, or you don't.

A lot of chromatics are tuned the other way, tuned to pitch wherever it happens to be in a given octave. Some chromatics though are tuned for octaves. I don't know this for sure, but my personal observation has been that higher-end chromatics are more likely to NOT be tuned for octaves.

The biggest difference, which Iceman pointed out, between piano and harmonica is the lack of sustain on the piano. It's why EQ chords sound nice on the piano and are fingernails on the chalkboard when played on harmonica. But just tuning does seem to improve chords of medium-short sustain as on a resonator guitar. I did some experimenting with my cousin I play music with. Tuned his resonator guitar in just intonation. This doesn't work with standard tuning, because when your chords change, so does the job of each string (i.e. playing a third on one chord, a fifth on another chord), but in open tuning, each string's job is the same for all chords and you can do it. The result sounded pretty good. 

Dave
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www.elkriverharmonicas.com 



----- Original Message ----
From: Doug <mr4chnt@xxxxxxxxx>
To: harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Sun, November 1, 2009 11:10:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Harp-L] tuning - piano octaves stretched

Iceman,

This is very interesting (about piano octave stretching) and new to me.  Would the middle be at 440, the low end at 439 and the high end at 441?  Over the 88 notes on the piano about how much would the total stretch be?    Am I misunderstanding? 

Is this technique applicable to the harmonica?  Would it help improve major chords on an ET harmonica or make them worse?

Sorry for the barrage of questions.

----- Original Message ----- 
  From: icemanle@xxxxxxx 
  To: harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx 
  Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2009 7:18 PM
  Subject: Re: [Harp-L] tuning



  A good read and very accurate. Well documented, etc. Of particular interest is the section on stretching the octave tunings. I didn't find a reason for this listed in this article, so will put forth what I learned concerning stretching octaves from my piano experience. Remember, this is all based on piano tunings.

  When octaves are tuned without stretching, the human ear seems to hear the upper octave note as though it were a bit flat. This isn't an acoustic science experience, but rather a human one. The stretch was introduced to give the ear the illusion that the octave note is in tune. When played together, you can still hear beating because the octave isn't really tuned pure, but at perfect imperfect octave intervals. However, the upper notes on a piano don't sustain very long, so an untrained ear really doesn't hear the pulsing. Also, in real music, you very rarely would sustain octaves like this very long. 

  Stretching as you extend down into the bass section gives the fourths and fifths a chance not to "roll" or "beat" as much, since in 12 tone ET these intervals are also tuned as squeezed or altered from pure. My technique was to tune lower octaves so that, when sustained, they would slowly roll open but never complete a full beat. It also helped give the piano more depth on the low end.
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