Re: [Harp-L] tuning schemas for playing styles (long)

["steve@xxxxxxxxxxxx" <swebb@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

Those of us blessed with imperfect pitch seldom  have problems like this. 
One problem I have encountered recently, however, is that because of all my harmonica playing over the past couple of years, my ear has improved to the point that it bothers me to hear a guitar chord if one string is off by very much.
Steve Webb in Minnesota

---- Winslow Yerxa <winslowyerxa@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: 
> Ross - 
> 
> You're actually trying to address two separate but related questions.
> 
> First,
as to the reference pitch. Hohner stamps A440 on their harmonicas but
they actually tune to something more in the 443-444 range. Partly
because in Germany the de facto standard is A444, and partly because
players naturally depress pitch with their breath, so manufacturers
tune slightly sharp.
> 
> The next question is, once you settle on a
reference pitch for tuning, what temperament scheme should you use?
That's going top depend largely on whether chordal playing is an
important part of what you're doing with any given harp. Putting chords
into JI pure intonation will make the chords sound not only smooth but
huge, because all the difference tones, combination tones,
and harmonics will be in tune and reinforce one another. But it means
that the thirds of the chords will be about 14 cents flat. This can
clash with equal-tempered instruments. If you're not playing chords,
12TET will make your notes sound more in tune with 12TET instruments,
provided your notes come out at A440. But chords can sound harsh -
hence some of the compromise tunings.
> 
> Let
me first address the question of reference pitch. A443 and A444 are
just too sharp for North American playing. I tried 443 and it was
unbearable. But for me 442 works well and I've made it my standard.
This allows me to be a little sharp, but to pull pitch down if I need
to or if my playing starts to depress pitch (you can always go flatter,
but you can't go sharper than the harp is tuned). I'd recommend that
you try tuning a harp to 442 and see how it suits you when you play
with your bandmates. You might also try tuning one to 441 or 441.5,
then see what sounds best.
> 
> Pat Missin has suggested tuning high, like to 443, to compensate for the extremely flat
 thirds of equal temperament. I tried 443 and couldn't stand it when playing with other instruments.
> 
> I
use some form of JI for my diatonics because I like to play chordally.
The problem with the simpler forms of JI is that Draw 5 and 9 sound
very flat as melody notes. Pat Missin has some advice about using
19-limit Just (instead of the simpler 7-limit Just) for another
way to temper this note. Check this out very carefully.
> 
> The various compromise tunings from Hohner, Lee Oskar,
and others are all intended to address both the chord tempering
questions and the question of depressed pitch (Lee, for instance, tunes
to A440 but something like 8 or 10 cents sharp, with some mild tempering of
thirds). Unfortunately, very little of this is published by
manufacturers, and the actual results are often inconsistent anyway.
> 
> As
to why you might be hearing more out-of-tuneness in an F harp, there
are several possible reasons. Could be that the higher pitch is just
more prone to bring things into focus (your ears). Maybe you have some
not-so-well tuned F harps (the harps). It could also be that your technique is such that on this higher-pitched harp you're either not depressing pitch as you normally would, thereby allowing the harp to to reveal how sharp it is, or you're pushing pitch down farther than you otherwise would (your technique, at least as applied to that
key).
> 
> I know this is kind of vague. Hope it helps.
> 
> Winslow Yerxa
> 
Author, Harmonica For Dummies ISBN 978-0-470-33729-5
> 
> --- On Tue, 12/1/09, pdxharpdog@xxxxxxxxxxx <pdxharpdog@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> 
> From: pdxharpdog@xxxxxxxxxxx <pdxharpdog@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: [Harp-L] tuning schemas for playing styles (long)
> To: "List harp-l" <harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: Tuesday, December 1, 2009, 5:42 PM
> 
> 
> 
> I have been bothered by a tuning problem as IÂhead into the studio to record the harmonica parts for our band's new CD. I haveÂhad theÂroughs of the guitar, bass and drums with scratch vocals for the past couple of weeks perfecting my harmonica parts for each song. Earlier today I had a discussion offline with Winslow Yerxa about tuning schemas and why my harps even new out of the box seem to be oddly out of tune with the guitar player in my band, who is tuned to 440 and tunes before each song in the studio. So you don't think I'm being too picky, there were some real clams on notes I play - bothÂseriously flat 5-draw and also significantly too sharp notes on the upper register. I checked my harps (new out of the box) against what I understood the tuning schemas to be and they were pretty close. I play Seydels, Suzukis and SP20s. 
> 
> 
> 
> I had also just read Winslow'sÂHarmonica for Dummies (great resource for all things harmonica) and theÂchapter on setting up harps and tuning. I also went toÂPat Missin'sÂwebsiteÂand had a discussion via email with Rupert Oysler about Seydel tuning, watched his video and have talked to a few pro-players. None of these sources explained it to me in a way I could grasp, so I emailed Winslow to ask him what could be the problem. I play mostly melody horn lines as we only have guitar, bass, drums, vocals and me on the harp.ÂAll our songs are originals - and roughly based on aÂ1920's based finger-picking guitar style (think punk Blind Blake if that isn't too blasp hemous) that we punk up with electric cigar-boxÂand such. ÂI'm asked to compose the hooks, duo and play off the guitar leads, and generally hold the melody line throughout the song, or - ÂdoÂa more traditional Chicago distorted harp sound on the trance-blues stuff.ÂOur guitar
>  player genuinely likes harp and wants me to always be there in the mix holding the melody.  
> 
> 
> 
> My question to Winslow (somewhat edited for this post) wasÂwhy do my new out of the box harps seem so out of tune? and something to the effect of Â"what is the base frequency set point if you are mainly playing melody lines? "Â440? ÂHigher to deal with the natural flattening with increased air pressure? 442/443? What is the best tuning schema? 12TET, Just Intonation, Compromise Tuning of some sort? 
> 
> 
> 
> His answer was very clear and he promised he would reply to this email post with the gist of his answer earlier today. Thanks Winslow for helping me to better understand how playing styles should factor intoÂtuning. 
> 
> 
> 
> pdxharpdog 
> 
> www.myspace.com/sassparillajugband 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Harp-L is sponsored by SPAH, http://www.spah.org
> Harp-L@xxxxxxxxxx
> http://harp-l.org/mailman/listinfo/harp-l
> 



> _______________________________________________
> Harp-L is sponsored by SPAH, http://www.spah.org
> Harp-L@xxxxxxxxxx
> http://harp-l.org/mailman/listinfo/harp-l