Subject: [Harp-L] Combs!
Richard! and Steve! I could just kiss you both! <G>
This is the very same argument I raised in my long-standing disagreement
with Vern both here and on Slidemeister. I believe that he's a qualified
engineer...but I vehemently disagree that any test involving someone else's hearing
(rather than the player) - should in any way be proof that comb material
doesn't affect sound. My contention is that only the player whose head, ears,
sinuses, mouth, throat and chest are involved is the one to determine what
he/she can hear...and not anyone standing (sitting) any distance away.
Further (to Tom): as far as I've been told, this experiment was not
sponsored by Spah, but purely under Vern's control (and his money), and to fit his
own personal criteria.
To make it a true experiment would necessarily mean taking it into a lab
and out of Vern's hands (and wagering) altogether. When I told him this (at
least a year or two ago) and that I personally thought the $1,000 wager was
insulting, he responded with a vile putdown related to my being a woman:
He's ignored every mention of mine that it shouldn't matter one whit what an
audience hears, rather it is what the player can hear coming from his
harmonica which is so personal and subjective. Every one of us hears sound
(music?) differently. There is still no exact science (everyone who thinks this
untrue should ask their ENT) as to just what constitutes 'hearing'. So why do
so many seem to think it's outside the realm of possibility that some people
CAN hear differences in comb materials as they play their instruments?
And it really doesn't (shouldn't) take a player as skilled as Steve Baker is
to hear it, either. I can't play a fraction as well as he can, yet can
easily distinguish the nuances and differences between my own harmonicas, all
else being equal. I daresay I could probably do it in public, but I don't have
to 'prove it' to anyone...and the idea of the money wager leaves a bad taste
for me. It's decidedly unscientific and something I wouldn't care to be
remotely involved with.
I even suggested to Vern that a test conducted by an audiologist/ENT
specialist using several youngsters ...perhaps around the age of 12 (where their
hearing is optimal and yet old enough to be able to articulate what they're
hearing)...might be a far more logical and scientific test. He ignores any
suggestion made that might possibly refute those 'spah' conducted tests. BTW,
just because they were conducted in a room at Spah.. shouldn't automatically
confer on them 'Spah' approval. Anyone with a scientific background should be
equally appalled by these results being held up to be the 'final' say so
about comb materials, while anyone disagreeing is shouted down, scoffed at or
ridiculed.
I wonder if I can get a straight answer to at least the following questions,
now that I know players of your, Steve's and SmoJoe's caliber hear very
similarly to how I do and seem to think alike as well?
>From those in attendance: Just how many 'participants' were there? How
far away from John Walden (the player) were they? Were they standing or
sitting? What were their ages? How good were/are their hearing abilities? (e.g. -
were any of them wearing hearing aids which perhaps might cut out small
nuances of sound?)...was anyone drinking alcohol beforehand (affects the senses
including hearing)...was anyone taking meds beforehand (affects the senses
including hearing)....
...regardless of all of the above, however...I've maintained all along that
I can hear distinct differences in comb material (all other aspects of my
harmonicas being identical), and no one has the right to be disdainful of or to
scoff at my ability to hear it purely because they themselves cannot. I'm
also very aware there are people whose hearing is far superior to mine and I
wouldn't dream of refuting any claims they made just because I couldn't hear
what they can, so why do some people insist on doing exactly that?
I'm an ear player and perhaps those who play primarily by ear do so because
they do hear a bit differently than other people? possible? ....just a
thought....
Elizabeth
"Message: 11
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 14:18:28 -0400
From: Richard Sleigh <rharp@xxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [Harp-L] Combs!
To: Richard HarpL Sleigh <harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <26EC98B6-BA61-4126-9BFC-26C08F65F127@xxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes;
format=flowed
If you don't think comb material makes a difference in the sound of a
harmonica, I have a couple of experiments for you to try out:
Take a 1/4" thick piece of foam core board and make a comb out of it.
Add reed plates & covers and play. Can you hear a difference now? How
about rubber?
Some materials reflect sound, some absorb it. An unsealed pearwood
comb absorbs some frequencies that a sealed pearwood comb reflects
and amplifies. That is my experience, what my ears tell me. I also
hear differences between brass, aluminum, and other materials. Sure,
you could mess me up if I had to listen to someone else play the
harps while I was bilndfolded, but there is a difference between how
I play and what I hear through bone conduction, etc.
If we really want to settle this once and for all, there are devices
that can measure sound and quantify it much better than most humans.
That would be much more scientific.
I was not at the comb trials that have been referenced, but at best
they were empirical science. Not definitive proof. If someone
recorded samples and produced voiceprints or some other spectrum
anaylisis visuals; and they came up identical for different
materials, I would be willing to believe that my ears are fooling me
when I hear differences in comb material.
I know what Steve Baker is talking about. Thank you Steve, for taking
the time to express your points so well. You saved me a lot of time
and effort!
shop address:
205 E. Pine Street
Philipsburg PA 16866-1623
814 342 9722 (w)
http://www.customharmonicas.com
myspace.com/richardsleigh
_http://www.youtube.com/rsleighharp_ (http://www.youtube.com/rsleighharp)
************************
Message: 8
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 09:46:37 +0200
From: Steve Baker <steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: [Harp-L] Re: Combs
To: Harp-L <harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx>
Message-ID: <31A627C4-0795-4223-940B-FE0E5C05B9B4@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes;
format=flowed
At the risk of provoking the scorn of those with a divergent opinion
I'd like to sketch my own experience with combs made of different
materials:
During the last couple of years in the course of my work for Hohner
I've made fairly exhaustive tests comparing combs made of various
woods and other materials, using Marine Band Deluxe reed plates and
covers due to the ease of assembling and disassembling them. I not
only compared identical instruments fitted with different combs, but
also swopped the reed plates so I could hear the same comb with a
different set of plates in order to eliminate possible differences in
reedplate quality. In addition I regularly play many of these
instruments on stage, often swopping harps in mid song to see if
there's a difference or to switch to one whose sound and playing feel
I prefer. I hear and perceive distinct differences not only between
different woods but also between wood and plastic, and also between
woods treated with different finishes. I haven't been able to conduct
tests using identical reedplates and covers with metal combs, but my
experiences with various harps fitted with metal combs lead me to
believe there is definitely a difference. A Hohner Meisterklasse MS
will sound slightly different with a wooden or plastic comb and it
will certainly feel different. Try it yourseof - the parts are
compatible after all. These tests have led me to clear personal
preferences. It's true that the outside listener might not notice any
difference, because we're talking about nuances here, but I certainly
notice enough difference to make me switch from one to another in the
middle of a song in order to make my music sound the way I want it to
sound to me. It's a moot point whether even a knowledgeable listener
will be able to hear the difference between a Stradivarius and a
medium priced violin, but believe me someone like Nigel Kennedy can,
and that's why top violinists are prepared to pay astronomical prices
in order to get one.
Elizabeth's point about possible toxicity is something I can only
agree with. Many woods can cause allergic reactions and there are
harmonicas on the market that I will not play for this reason,
Steve
Steve Baker
steve@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
www.stevebaker.de
www.bluesculture.com
www.youtube.com/stevebakerbluesharp
**************************
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