Re: [Harp-L] re: history

["Rick Dempster" <rick.dempster@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

Mmm....of course, it wasn't William Shakespeare who wrote all those plays and poems; it was another bloke with the same name.
RD

>>> Joe and Cass Leone <leone@xxxxxxxx> 18/11/2008 11:38 >>>

On Nov 17, 2008, at 6:17 PM, Jonathan Ross wrote:

> "O.K. I didn't consider it a claim. I was thinking more along the  
> lines of Richter being the Abner Doubleday guy of harmonicas and I  
> meant Joseph is who people were probably actually talking about. I  
> didn't go into detail because it wasn't my point. My point was  
> Anton Richter was a plumber. He didn't make any harmonicas.

How do we know?...for sure, I mean. A lot of people hold one job and  
do something different as an avocation (or hobby). Another thing to  
consider. I personally know 4 people names Bill West, and 3 people  
names Glen Young, 3 named Dave Smith, 3 named Dave Williams, and even  
3 Joe Leones. I don't see it as inconceivable that there could be  
more than one Anton Richter. Both names are common.

> Thus you can scratch Anton off the Richter scale.
> On Joseph, personally, I think there is no evidence. It's doubleday  
> commission all over again, only this time with the only non- 
> religous thing as sacred as baseball - the harp. "
>
> I simply don't believe this.  I believe that you meant what you  
> originally wrote in terms of the origins of the harmonica and are  
> now backtracking from an untenable position.

While a small child growing up in Europe, none of my British friends  
lived near enough to me to play with. I only saw them at school. So,  
I played with myself. Quit laughing. Ooooh, you people. Anyway, while  
in 3rd grade I began to read our Doubleday encyclopedias. Starting  
backwards from Z, I was only able to get down to Aardvark. Now, you  
tell me that all that work was for naught?     lol
>
> Further, I think you are confusing Richters, which is easy.  There  
> are the late 19th century pair of Anton and Jacob Richter who made  
> harmonicas, and then there is the semi-mythical Richter of a half- 
> century earlier who later was identified as "Joseph".
>
> "You appear to have missed a really big point in that e-mail I just  
> put it out there. Despite the fact they probably operated Anton  
> Richter and CO., Seydel employes of old never called it Richter,  
> they called it "HAIDER" "
>
> "Haidaer" is the spelling.  I was quite aware of it.  It may or may  
> not have any significance, since it is unknown which term came  
> first.  Certainly "Haidaer" follows in the tradition of such names  
> as Weiner and Knittlinger.  "Richter" as an inventor would follow  
> in the lines of calling the Weiner system after it's inventor, such  
> as "Thei" and "Hotz" respectively.
>
> "You were saying that Pat Missin says nobody knows the relationship  
> between Joseph and Anton. The German Harmonica museum says they  
> were brothers. How do they know these things? They went to Bohemia  
> and looked at records, so at the moment, I'm going to have to go  
> with their theory on that one until something trumps it or I doubt  
> it.  "
>
> Again, are you sure you are not confusing Richters?  There was a  
> pair of harmonica making Richters late in the 19th century, one of  
> whom was Anton, but the other was not named Joseph but Johann.  The  
> relationship I was referring to as being unknown was that between  
> these two and the semi-mythical "herr Richter" later attributed  
> with the Christian name of Joseph.
>
> "I'm not exactly reading ANY contemporary histories on anything.  
> I'm looking at the stuff you're supposed to look at, patents,  
> advertising, etc. "
>
> Contemporary histories are very useful in all fields of history.   
> One "should" look at everything, and be aware of the biases and  
> problems within all forms of evidence.
>
> As for nationalism and the political location of Bohemia in the  
> 19th century, I think you are missing the point entirely.  The rise  
> of nationalism as a concept and it's creation of the nation-state  
> were tied deeply into the emerging racial, ethnic and linguistic  
> theories of the late 19th century.  Not only did nationalism not  
> care about existing borders, it actively seeked to destroy their  
> legitimacy and change these political constructs.  I don't and  
> didn't claim that the use of Richter was an example of this (it may  
> or may not have been, the C. F. L. Buschmann story fits better in  
> this mold) only that these issues surrounded anyone writing in the  
> day and probably deeply informed what they wrote.  Moreover, by  
> claiming all German-speakers (to use this specific example)  
> including those in a place like Bohemia as being inherently part of  
> the German national movement, a political claim was made on the  
> territory as well.  It was the use of culture and history to  
> advance political goals that was behind much of the nationalist  
> movement at the time, and which specifically seeked to rewrite  
> borders to fit this concept.
>
> And that is probably beyond the scope of harp-l on the subject, as  
> we are now only tangentially relating to this specific example of  
> Richter and the probably influence of nationalist ideas on this  
> specific story.
>
>
> "Who's Bauschman?"
>
> A misspelling of Buschmann.
>
>
>
>
>
>  ()()    JR "Bulldogge" Ross
> ()  ()
> `----'
>
>
>
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