Re: Re: [Harp-L] Choking the reeds -- harmful?

["john" <jjthaden@xxxxxxxxx>]

Or maybe the damage is done when the reed is not vibrating at all.  At the very bottom of a draw bend, the blow reed is doing essentially all the work.  What exactly happens if you try to bend lower?  Does the blow reed stop vibrating?  What is its position then?  Could it be maximally deflected, a leaf in a hurricane?

======= At 2008-04-23, 16:58:18 you wrote: =======

>Since the discussion has centered on diatonics and two-reed bends, that's where I'll stay with it. 
>
>My experience and I think that of others is that, particularly early in a playing career, the 4 blow reed often flats our or breaks.  At first, this was a real mystery since I didn't lean on 4 blow very hard, until I understood that diatonic bends involve both reeds and that the deeper a bend is, the more it involves the other reed; try laying a finger over 4 draw while playing a deep 4 draw bend; you may find it has little effect.  So, in other words, when I was leaning on my 4 draw bend, the 4 blow reed was vibrating.  Not only that, but it was vibrating in "opening reed" mode.  Here's where I wish I had empirical evidence, but it may be that, even if the excursion of the blow reed is not maximal in that circumstance, its deflection may be (and I tend to agree with Vern that over-deflection is the reed killer).  What I mean is that it may be vibrating over (and just barely into) its reed slot instead of more equally through it, as for a 'closing reed'.
>
>Beginners report that bending involves more stress and strain than playing straight notes, but experienced players less so.  To me it's just different.
>
>-John Thaden
>http://www.musicwebtown.com/mikedollins/185402  
>
>Vern Smith <jevern@xxxxxxx> wrote: Although I don't know for sure, I would like to present an argument based mostly on theory but supported by a small amount of empirical data.  I do so as much to stimulate discussion as to convince.
>
>I posit that bending does NOT overstress reeds.
>
>The stress in a reed is attributable only to reed deflection and nothing
>else...not player pressure, not player embouchure, and not player effort
>unless these player actions cause the deflection.
>
>I just viewed again Dr. Bahnsons videotape in which he employs ultrasound, endoscopic video, stroboscopic video, and X-ray video.  Most of the effort is on the physiology of the player but there is some stroboscopic video of the reeds during bending. It appears to me that the reed deflection is greatest when the reed is vibrating at its natural, unbent pitch.
>
>The familiar curve of amplitude as a function of excitation frequency in a
>vibrating part shows that there is a gradual increase in amplitude as the
>exciting frequency increases from zero, a very high peak at the resonant
>frequency of the part, and a rapid decline in amplitude as the frequency
>becomes greater than resonance.  From this I conclude that bending
>embouchures tend to excite the reeds at other than the resonant frequency of the reed(s).  It follows that the amplitude of vibration will be lower and that the stress will also be lower.
>
>It may be that bending is actually easier on a reed than plain old loud
>playing at the reed's natural resonant pitch.
>
>The false notion that bending is more stressful to reeds may arise because the stress ON THE PLAYER is greater and the bent tone of a reed SOUNDS strained. It seems as though the reed is stressed by being forced to do something that it doesn't want to do.  We often falsely attribute human qualities to inanimate objects
>
>OK folks......there is my argument.  Have at it with your counter-arguments and comments while I cringe behind my monitor.   ;o)
>
>Vern
>Visit my harmonica website www.Hands-Free-Chromatic.7p.com
>
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: 
>
>To: 
>Sent: Monday, April 21, 2008 8:55 AM
>Subject: [Harp-L] Choking the reeds -- harmful?
>
>
>> Now that we've got the issue of reed material pretty well in hand, perhaps
>> it's time to discuss long lived-reeds.
>>
>> Many people remember the old admonition from Hohner on that little paper
>> with
>> the harmonica: "Don't choke the reeds. Choking the reeds voids the
>> warranty."
>> FYI: Choking is an older term for bending.
>>
>> Is there any evidence that "skillful" bending and overblowing damaged
>> reeds
>> and shorten the reed life? (Keeping in mind that the opposing reed
>> provides the
>> bend, of course.)
>>
>> I don't overblow (very much) and have found that bending takes very little
>> pressure or wind -- in fact just enough air to fog a mirror usually works
>> for
>> me.
>>
>> (I tend to think John Popper "blowing out reeds" during a performance
>> extreme
>> (not typical); but then I was wrong in '98 too.)
>>
>> Phil Lloyd
>
>
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= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
			

Best regards.				 
john
jjthaden@xxxxxxxxx
2008-04-24