[Harp-L] Re: Subject: Re: Plagiarism (plagarism)

[EGS1217@xxxxxxx]

Again, Glenn...thank you for taking the time to break down my post to  
explain what I needed to know.  12 bars does seem a rather extensive  "phrase".  I 
hadn't realized it meant a full chorus.  In a song  with lyrics..it would 
clearly identify the song, so I understand a lot more  than I did before.  Other of 
your points taken as well. 
 
 I can't argue at all with your conclusions, since my most pertinent  
point...likening the notes to words and the realization that if you'd been  to a 
poetry reading no one would argue with your finding of plagiarism under the  same 
circumstances, is how I might tend to look at this issue in the end  run.   
 
There's a lot to be said, as well...for your taking the moral  stance, 
popular or not.
 
I very much appreciate the clarification. 
 
Regards,
Elizabeth
 
 
 
"Liz-
 
Replies below

----- Original Message ----- 
From:  _EGS1217@xxxxxxxx (mailto:EGS1217@xxxxxxx)  
To: _celticguitar1@xxxxxxxxxxxxx (mailto:celticguitar1@xxxxxxxxxxxx)  
Cc: _harp-l@xxxxxxxxxxx (mailto:harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx)  
Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 7:23  PM
Subject: Subject: Re: Plagiarism  (plagarism)



Thank you for the private explanation of the difference between  copying a 
riff vis-a-vis a solo, Glenn, since my original post to which you  graciously 
responded just made it onto the actual list this afternoon, and I  wouldn't want 
anyone to think I was belabouring the point long after the fact,  since I 
sent it in around 6p.m on Friday. 
 Your response was much appreciated.

You've since also explained your point of view onlist, as have several  other 
players.  So I'm writing this around 7:15 p.m."ish"  on Saturday, asking more 
questions :)
 
....I guess I'm one of those who don't truly know the difference  between a 
"phrase" and a "full solo".  So....can someone break it  down for a novice like 
me?  And would a solo need to consist of  so many bars?  Is it always length? 
Or does the recognizability factor of  a particular phrase sometimes count 
instead?  
 
>A solo is a full chorus of the song, in most cases 12 bars where  blues are 
concerned. Riffs are 1 -4 bars, usually.
 
>From your perspective, I can quite see how what you witnessed could be a  
burr under your saddle...you have written books covering certain artists'  
definitive styles, which I believe makes you particularly sensitive to  their being 
"ripped off", just as much as it would be if someone were to quote  passages 
from a Hemingway book in a public reading of his/her own novel....or  
incorporate passages from a Frost poem within his/her own poetry again  during a public 
reading without explaining that the words weren't their  own....it makes 
perfect sense if one correlates the notes to words,  and thinks of it in those 
terms...(and a perfect definition of  plagiarism).
 
>I think the artist was passing off the solos as original. Unless you  knew 
the solo was stolen, that's what you would have thought. That's why it  rankles 
me.
 
 But I had been looking at it earlier from a  different perspective until 
reading all the   various points of view  (including yours), pretty much as: 
 
.. just how many Blues phrases are there without there having at  some point 
to be some sort of repetition...especially to achieve the "sound"  every Blues 
player who pays homage to those who came before is  seeking.  
 
>It's hard to avoid playing a phrase someelse has used sometimes. One  only 
takes an entire 12 -bar by design.
 
Therein lies the quandary, methinks.  
 
Most of the responding posts have valid viewpoints, frankly (imho, of  
course). One person chose to be very rude, alas, and probably does not  have a clue 
that you do indeed have a life (and therefore don't need to "get  one") within 
the harmonica world.
 
>I've been on Harp-L since 1998 (more of a lurker lately, time being  tight) 
and am used to jerks there. I ignored that guy.
 
I suppose my thoughts (jumbled as they are) ramble in the direction  of:  can 
anyone be absolutely positive that the "well known player"  you haven't yet 
outed not be merely playing these pieces as something he's  been so used to 
doing for enough years they've merely become rote (as  some here have alluded to) 
and simply blended into and become part of his  repertoire, so he isn't 
thinking at all that they once were another  player's distinctive solo......  
 
>The artist knew where exactly where the solos came from, and this was  all 
done knowingly. This a famous player here who should have known  better.
 
or....devil's advocate as I prefer to be:  If he IS that far up  the ladder 
and at the top of his game ...could it perhaps be that the player  in question 
might hope or expect his audience to be sophisticated  and knowledgeable 
enough to recognize those solos precisely AS his homage to  his "heroes"...and be 
performing them with a wink to the few in the  audience who would be aware 
(admittedly very few)?  
 
>I definelty don't think so. It was not a blues audience. These were  rubes, 
marks here.
 
For that matter and my own curiosity, does any real pro ever  stop his/her 
playing to tell the audience that the solo just played   -- or about to be, was 
that of one of  the "greats"?  Would 99% of the audience have a  clue who was 
being discussed when it comes to the harmonica world,  or are they there 
simply to be entertained and not educated?
 
It's one thing to play "Juke" and not announce the  title/artist.  It's 
another to take a solo from elsewhere and slip  it into another song without credit.
 
Some sort of casual reference at the end of a piece would certainly be  
nice...even if completely incomprehensible to me as an audience member (half  the 
time I can't decipher the names when an artist pays kudos to his  fellow 
musicians, let alone anything more esoteric)...but if any artist I was  paying to 
see spent an inordinate amount of time doing this, I can  imagine becoming just 
a tad annoyed.
 
I'm a big fan of Jazz guitarist Peter White.  During his concerts he  plays a 
mixture of his own music as well as covers of the  R&B music he (and I) grew 
up with in the 60's...makes almost  a game of seeing where in the piece the 
audience will recognize the  number and begin to sing along.  These are beloved 
songs...(I'm  listening to one right now: "Walk on By" (Warwick/Bacharach)) 
many of which he  recorded on CD's, so I'm assuming he's taken care of any 
copyright....but  what is the difference, really, since sometimes he only plays 
snippets  of familiar songs...as "teasers".  
 
>You can take four bars as a quote, People do that all the the  time.
 
Are we more judgmental towards harmonica players than we would be towards  
guitarists, pianists..or any other instrumentalists?  I really do  see your side 
of it and understand the frustration, but can also see  the disparate 
viewpoint..but then again...perhaps precisely because "gone  before" harmonica blues 
players never made any real money or weren't "as  respected" in the music 
industry as their fellow musicians, is why this  bothers you to the extent it 
does, and for that reason alone I'd be in your  corner...   
 
>I'd criticize anyone who did something comparable on any ax. 
 
Then there's this school of thought:  Wasn't the entire world of  chromatic 
harmonica playing in the United States influenced by "Peg O' My  Heart" as 
played by the Harmonicats...and so many beginning chromatic players  strove 
mightily to play it just as they did?  I imagine their entire aim  (and for their 
audiences as well)... was to get as close to the real  thing as possible...."If 
you can't have the original, a great copy will  make do"?
 
>They credited the composer. There's no comparison.
 
I'm actually not looking to learn any harmonica solo the way it's  played by 
anyone else...since I'm partial to Saxophone players and vocalists  for my 
inspiration on chromatic...but I'd sure give my eyeteeth to  sound remotely like 
Barbra Streisand, Eva Cassidy or Cassandra Wilson  when I sing...and if I 
could, I'd do every single one of their songs note for  note if I had a mere 
fraction of their talent.   ;)
 
>Playing great songs and great solos is always good training.  This a 
question of artistic honesty.
 
-Glenn
 
Regards,
 
Elizabeth"


******************************************




************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.