[Harp-L] Re: Question / Harp-L member

["Alexander Savelyev" <Alexander.Savelyev@xxxxxxxx>]

Hi Tim, 

thank you very much for your comments and insights. Very helpful. I
spent some month thinking and looking into different units. I guess
I'll
build up something similar to your set-up. But to begin with, I'd like
to get 2 or 3 pieces of equipment. You actually gave good food for
thought, so my relative blindness in this respect is ceasing to exist:
I
guess I've read some 8-10 owner's manuals for different units and it's
still getting instersing. I finally found a store in my country that
by
chance sells ZOOM products and the prices are even lower than in the
U.S. - which usually is not the case. So, the only wise thing would be
to try some of the units. 

Thanks again for your willingness to help and great deal of
information
and details. Everything is just to the point. 

Alex

>>> Tim Moyer - Working Man's Harps <wmharps@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
25.09.2006 18:57:00 >>>
Hi, Alex,
   
  I don't claim to be any kind of an expert on this topic, but I have
worked hard to achieve the sound that I use in performance and studio
recording, and have gained a lot of trail-and-error knowledge that might
be helpful.  Let me preface my remarks by saying that I play diatonic
harmonica exclusively, and don't ever attempt to achieve an "acoustic"
sound.  I'd be happy if no one knew I was playing harmonica at all, and
thought instead that I was playing a trumpet or saxophone or clarinet. 
In this regard, I've been pretty successful!  
   
  Several years ago (maybe 10 now), I set out to build my own
amplification system that would be more flexible and multi-dimensional
than the bullet-mic-into-vintage-tube-amp that most harmonica players
use.  I chose for the heart of my system a hybrid tube/solid state
micrphone preamplifier, a digital multi-effects unit and a solid state
power amplifier.  My thinking was that I would be able to add all the
sound character up front, and then amplify it to whatever extent I
needed by keeping the power clean.  That way I am not dependent on
getting my volume to some certain level in order to get the sound
quality I need.  Gradually I've added other units, as I will describe
later. 
   
  I, too, thought of using a guitar multi-effects unit, and to that end
I bought a Zoom 105.  I quickly found that most of the effects were
completely unsuitable for harmonica, because they add a lot of overdrive
and sustain, which harmonice doesn't need, and introduces a lot of
feedback.  I now use the Zoom unit for guitar!  
   
  My initial setup started with a PAiA TubeHead preamp which I built
from a kit (http://www.paia.com/tubestuf.htm#tubehead).  If I had it to
do again, I'd probably use an ART TPS II
(http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/ART-TPS-II-2Channel-Variable-Impedance-Tube-Preamp?sku=180632)
which does essentially the same thing. I then added an Alesis MidiVerb
IV, primarily to add reverb, although I sometimes use the chorus effect
as well.  I tried using the pitch shifter, but never really got
something I liked with it.  My power amplifier is a Rolls RA-235
(http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=155399&is=REG&addedTroughType=search),
which is 35watts a channel in stereo, bridgable to 70watts mono.  I use
a pair of WeberVST P10Q speakers.  This setup worked great, and I still
use this small subset of effects for many gigs.  It lets me run a line
out to a DI box and still have on-stage amplification, where amp volume
is independent of line
 volume, so that turning up and down on stage doesn't effect the house
mix.  
   
  I sometimes use a couple of effects pedals in my chain, including a
Boss OC-2 (there's now an OC-3 out that I'd choose instead) and a
Digitech Synth-Wah envelope filter that I use for auto-wah.  I also run
an A-B switch on the floor to allow me to select between tube compressed
and solid state clean side of my preamp.  
   
  I've gradually been adding effects over the years.  I bought a
Digitech Vocalist VR harmonizer
(http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/DigiTech-Vocalist-VR?sku=180063&src=3SOSWXXA)
about a year ago, with the idea that I would be able to do "horn
section" harmony lines with it, but it hasn't worked so well for that. 
Instead, it does create a really nice accordion sound, particularly when
used with chorus on the midiverb.  The harmonizer wants a REALY clean
input signal, and can't handle polyphonic effects, or even a lot of
overtones.  For that reason, it goes FIRST in the effects chain, even
before the preamp.  The Vocalist has a built-in pre-amp, and can take
either a balanced or unbalanced input, and outputs an unbalanced mono
signal.  It also has reverb, but I NEVER use it.  I find the effect very
useful for some things, but really don't use it that much.  
   
  One thing that has been very useful, since my amplifier doesn't have
tone controls, is a graphic equalizer for shaping the tone.  I bought an
Alesis DEQ-230, which has 30 bands per channel (stereo) and is
programmable.  I can store a number of preset programs for different
sounds and choose them depending on the song, room, or choice of other
effects.  I use the EQ as the last component before amplification.  
   
  I also added a wireless micrphone receiver to the chain, using the
AKG WMS-40 Snap-on, which I think has been discontinued.  It's basically
a 9cm long XLR transmitter that plus into any lo-Z microphone, and a
rack-mount receiver, fixed frequency.  I use mine with a Sennheiser e604
drum micrphone, from which I have removed the mounting clip and added
padding to reduce the handling noise.  This is a ful-spectrum mic with
VERY high sound pressure handling capabilities, and it works very well
to close mic a harmonica.  
   
  I recently bought an 8-space rack case to house all of this stuff,
and added a power conditioner and a patch bay.  Here's the breakdown of
the effects chain:
   
  Sennheiser e604 mic w/ AKG snap-on transmitter
  AKG WMs-40 Wireless receiver
  Digitech Vocalist VR harmonizer
  Boss OC-2 octave effect (floor box)
  Digitech Synth-Wah envelope filter (floor box)
  Morely ABY channel switch (floor box; feeds two input channels on
preamp)
  PAiA TubeHead tube/solid state hybrid preamp
  Alesis Midiverb IV digital multi-effects unit
  Alesis DEQ-230 programmable digital equlaizer
  Rolls RA-235 35watt-per-channel power amplifier
  Weber VST P10Q speakers (pair)
   
  There are a few things to remember about this setup: the harmonizer
doesn't play well with other effects, particularly up-stream, which is
why it sits at the top of the chain.  Even after adding multiple
harmonized voices, they sound much better if their clean.  The Boss OC-2
is an analog device, and has some limitations in locking up on signals. 
It doesn't like inputs that are too high or too low in frequency, and
HATES polyphonic input (the new OC-3 might be better about that).  That
said, it still creates a wonderful synth-y sounding octave output, and I
love this effect.  The Synth-Wah has a limit amount of usefulness, but
it does a great job in its basic setting creating a hornlike wah sound. 
Most of the effects in the Alesis MidiVerb are way overdone.  This is a
studio-purposed unit, and has both "wet" and "dry" outputs, so you can
mix the effects in separately.  In a setup like mine, I have to dial the
reverb WAY back from the factory settings.  Sometimes I turn
 it off completely in a boomy room.  
   
  A while back I recorded a few pieces using various effects in my
system, including the harmonizer and octave box.  I don't think I owned
the EQ at the time.  I don't recall precisely which effects were used on
which snippet, but you should be able to get some idea from listening to
them:
  http://www.workingmansharps.com/Sounds/other/sample%2001.mp3 
  http://www.workingmansharps.com/Sounds/other/sample%2002.mp3 
  http://www.workingmansharps.com/Sounds/other/sample%2003.mp3 
  http://www.workingmansharps.com/Sounds/other/sample%2004.mp3 
  http://www.workingmansharps.com/Sounds/other/sample%2005.mp3 
   
  In addition, I recorded some samples using various EQ profiles, which
you can find linked to this page (includes descriptions of the
setting):
  http://www.workingmansharps.com/Sounds/other/ 
   
  I don't really know what else I can tell you.  This is a very
personalized setup, and some people have achieved great things with
other setups.  Folks like Richard Hunter and Chris Michalek have had
success using multi-effects units like the Digitech and the POD and the
Line 6.  I like mine because it makes me sound like this:
  http://www.workingmansharps.com/Sounds/other/Pork%20Pie.mp3 
   
  Have fun, and if I can explain anything else, just let me know.  
   
  -tim
   
  

Alexander Savelyev <Alexander.Savelyev@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
  Hi Tim, 

I posted a couple of messages in Harp-L about possible set-up for the
accoustic harmonica sound (mostly for jazz purposes - chromatic and
diatonic harmonicas) and in conversation with Jim Greenwald I found
out
that you are quite knowledgable on this type of gear set up for
accoustic harmonica playing. So, I decided to write. What I basically
would be greatful to you for is some comments and/or advice on
possible
set-ups for accoustic playing - with the use of some guitar effects
mentioned later on. 

Let me give you some background info first. 
1. I play both diatonic and chromatic harmonicas and am into jazz
music. For jazz purposes plan to use chromatic harmonica mostly. I
want
to use solo, rhythm sound as well as harmonized solo with the use of
harmonizer/pitch shift of HOG effects.
2. I like experiments with harmonica sound - especially with the
modeling effects. 
3. I met Fred Yonnet in DC in Kennedy Center one day and heard him
play
jazz with the use of Para DI from Baggs and Boss guitar effects. I
don't
know what the set up was, but the sound was great. I know that Fred
himself as a musician was mostly responsible for the tone and general
sound but his set-up for accoustic-jazz playhing also did its job. 
4. I have no experience in dealing with guitar effects - I don't know
how they behave in regards to vocal mics even if used with the
lo-Z-to-hi-Z transformer, etc. 

My initial perception was that all-in one effect boxes would serve my
purpose well. But then I realized that it's pretty hard to achieve
studio quality sound with this option in studio for instance. So, I
decided to explore further but found myself in difficult position as I
don't know much about guitar pedals in terms of getting an accoustic
sound from vocal mic (lo-z) through pedal effects and then to PA -
with
the good signal and effects in place. 

I would like to use the following guitar effects: (1) Compressor, (2)
Limiter, (3) Pitch shifter/Harmonizer (4) Reverb, (5) Para DI and
probably some fully active DI. Literally I need to know what could be
set up of effects and units starting from the vocan mic and ending the
PA console. If a regular guitar amp should be used, it would be
another
option. 

So, I'm now trying to look in the future and clear things up for
myself
regarding what set-up would work great accoustically and give me
freedom
in shaping MY sound . My initial assumption was and still is that with
a
few units I can do the job. I'm now keeping an eye on (1) RP x400 by
Digitech or maybe Roland AD-5 as one option and (2) Para DI from Baggs
and pedal effects mentioned above so I could shape the sound as I
want.
I play guitar too - from time to time - so Para DI will be of help
anyway. 

Sorry for sort of a dwelling email. I just had experimenting
experience
in the music store and I failed to get a decent sound from my harps
using gutar effects even with the hi-Z mics. I guess there should be
some simple trick. I'm now going in circles around the secret thing
(at
least to me) - how to make vocal mic sound well with the use of guitar
effects and still not to cause feedback problems. 

I'd appreciate your comments.

Thank you. 

Alex