Re: [Harp-L] Modes, was 3rd Position Tunes

[Jp Pagan <jpl_pagan@xxxxxxxxx>]

--- In harp-l-archives@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Richard Hunter
<turtlehill@...> wrote:
>
> JP wrote:
> > i'm not Mike but, the simplest answer is:
positions
> > have to do with which key you are playing in
relative
> > to the key of the harmonica. it doesn't matter
what
> > scales or modes you are playing, only the key.
> 
> There's a basic confusion here about what a "key"
is.  The only thing
> that defines a "key" is the notes that make it up --
in other words, the
> scale.  No scale, no key.  

granted, however, you must agree that an A minor
scale, an A blues scale, the A Ionian mode, the A
Diminished scale... they are all in the key of A. if
you play all of them on a D harmonica you are in
second position, hence my assertion that WHICH scale
you are playing (blues, diminished, bebop, etc) isn't
what determines the position you are in, it is the key
(of that scale, if you will) relative to the key of
the harmonica. 

> 
> The only reason players use different positions is
so they can use the
> scale of a given harp in a different way -- i.e. to
play that harp in a
> different key, using a mode of the scale built into
the harp.

that makes it sound vaguely like saying that harp
players choose their position to fit the mode they are
playing. i don't think mean that, do you?

> Whether or not you bend or overblow, on the
> diatonic harmonica you generally start with a scale
based on one of >the notes of a single 7-note scale --
the scale that's built into the
> diatonic harp you just picked up.  That's a mode, by
definition. 

well, Richard, i know you know a great deal about
music, but that goes against every definition of a
mode i've ever heard. just because you start on one
note of the scale built into a harp doesn't mean
you're in a mode because then literally everything you
play on a harmonica (or any other instrument for that
matter, they all have the same notes) would be mode.
every scale starts on some note of what could be
considered a 7 note scale. a mode is restricted to the
notes of a diatonic scale. at least, that's my
understanding of how it's defined and how it's been
defined since the Greeks.


> > another (common) example is the G blues scale: if
i
> > play G blues on a C harmonica, it's second
position
> > but i'm not playing in a mode.
> 
> It's second position, AND it's a Mixolydian mode,
which is what you get
> when you play a C major scale from G to G.  Using
bent or overblown
> notes in this situation doesn't change the basic
fact that second
> position puts you in a Mixolydian mode.  

again, that goes against everything i've ever read
about modes. modes are very specific collections of
notes. the blues scale is not a mode, it has most of
the same notes as the mixolydian mode, but if you
played them side by side you'd quickly note the
difference between one and the other (not the least of
which is that the blues scale has a minor third -and a
major third depending on how you choose to play it -
and the mixolydian has only a major third. that's a
significant tonal difference).

i have to say, i'm really surprised by alot of what
you've said here, Richard. it just flies in the face
of all the (admittedly limited) music theory i know. i
don't mean to disrespect you, but it sounds very wrong
to me. 

  --Jp

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