RE: [Harp-L] A vibrato related question

["Alexander Savelyev" <Alexander.Savelyev@xxxxxxxx>]

Hi Michelle, 

Big thanks for your elucidative reply. And sorry if I sounded a little
strict. Yes I see that Ronnie confirmed that it was the diaphragm
vibrato. I do accept that reply and think that the person who does
things knows better what he or she is doing. 

On the other hand, people often do confuse things when describing some
processes that take place. For instance, there's no pure diaphragm
breathing or upper-lung (chest/rib) breathing but a mixed one with
different share or portions of each with one type dominating all the
time or at the time a specified technique is used or applied. Vibrato
and  bending are on the top of the list of harmonica technique where
confusion occurs. And confusion or contradition is a purely subjective
matter as there's no standard terminology and scientifically described
and proven processes. So, if one bends the note on a harmonica in one
way putting the accent on something that the other person rejects, then
there's contradictory perception of the processes and therefore conflict
of opinions. And what is more interesting everyone would be right as own
method works and gives desired results. 

Proceeding from the above I'd like to emphasize the following: 

1. Whatever technique is used, the mostly engaged in the process (sound
effect, etc.) action and resource of that action (hand, tongue, lips,
etc.) can at least theoretically be considered the most responsible for
the whole ultimate sound effect. Say, in case of vibrato, "vibrato" is a
cumulative term describing the whole process and result, but additional
terminology as "bent" vibrato, "throat" vibrato, "diaphragm" vibrato,
"lips" vibrato, "tongue" vibrato - just give more specifics in terms of
what exactly influences the sound. No doubt, when doing throat vibrato
one's tongue can participate in the process, including lips, soft
palate, throat, etc., but the "throat" vibrato was named as such because
contractions in the throat do 80% of job. And we call this or that type
of a harmonica techniqe usually sticking to the most dominating action
or its origin (tongue, diaphragm, etc.). 

2. Due to personal perceptions people describe processes as they
themselves see them without generalizations. It means that a person
focuses on something that he or she believes is crucial but which in
reality is not always responsible for more that 50% of the result. 


MY OPINION
Though I am sure Ronnie is right in his descriptions, etc., I still
have a reservation regarding the name of the type of vibrato used
at/since 1:55 on the video clip discussed. Yes, as it was said above,
one sound effect can combine several techniques and actions, but I
believe it is legitimate to call a certain type of technique after the
action or it's origin, which is/are responsible for more than 50% of the
result. And in my opinion, when we hear the result at 1:55, the 
diaphragm vibrato gets less than 50%  of it's share in the whole
process. And the tongue motion is mostly responsible for the aggregated
result thereof. 

*I can agree that participation of the diaphragm in the process gives
more emotions, etc., but I doubt it can give contractions of such
freaquency or even if yes, the leading role would be after the tongue
motions. If it's not true then Ronnie broke my stereoptypes which I
don't like to keep in my head anyway:) 
 
** Such a vibrato requires brisk and stable airflow which can be
reached by involving one's diaphragm in breathing process constantly
focusing on the air pressure in a agiven direction, but is it possible
to do two things at once - (1) provide for a massive air flow to add
more emotions and (2) make vibrations at the freaqancy heard in the
clip?

So, my final opnion is that it was a tongue vibrato, regardless of some
bending and diaphragm applied and regardless of one's perception. Though
my point has weak grounds as there's no scientific proof or explanation
of the technique - which basically means that everyone of us is right
whatever we say. 


P.S. Michelle, I don't see this exchange of ideas as a competition or
so, I really want to explore and open new directions for group
discussion. So, thank you for bringing this topic to everyone's
attention.  And I'll be glad to get more opinions on this issue. 



>>> "MLeFree" <mlefree@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 26.07.2006 2:41:18 >>>
Alexander Savelyev writes:
> Dear Michelle,
>
> You are right about the diaphragm vibrato, that it is impressive and
> worth get one's hands on, etc.
>
> But in replying to the Bob's question on the type of vibrato used
> at/since 1:55 (time) you are leading Bob astray. Maybe
unintentially,
> but anyway your answer is not correct. PLease give it a listen once
> again and tell me if I'm wrong. Even if it were a diaphragm vibrato
it
> would be extremely difficult to reach that amplitude just sitting at
the
> chair.
>
> In addition it's possible to do it when puckering with no problem -
> with no drop in expression.
>
> Have you mastered that type of vibrato used at 1:55? If yes then I
> expect a reply from you soon with the correct answer:)
>
> Best,
>
>
> Alex

Thanks for the reply, Alex (and Matt Smart, Ben Bouman and of course,
Tim
Moyer...  8^)

I decided to put the questions to Ronnie hisself via his youtube site.
Here's what I wrote:

Hey, Ronnie -
I seem to have sparked some controversy on harp-l about your technique.
I
say you are tongue blocking much of the time (but not exclusively)
others
say you are a puckerer only. I also say that your vibrato at about 1:55
on
"Funky Blues Harp" is a combo diaphragmatic/hand vibrato. Others say
its a
throat/hand vibrato. It's pretty fast (and very cool!), so maybe they
are
right. Can you set me (us?) straight?
Thanks,
Michelle
Montrose, Colorado

And Ronnie's Reply:

Michelle,
Glad to hear there's some controversy over my playing. Hopefully that's
a
good thing.
To start, I tongue block, but not exclusively, you're right. Remember,
certain techniques require tongue blocking (octaves, flutters, slaps,
side
to side warbles). I, however, also tonque block certain single note
runs as
well in the middle of the harp, particularly 4-8 holes. I do pucker
the
majority of the quicker runs.
As for the sound at 1:55, that is a combo of diaphragm, tonque and jaw
technique. The diaphragm is working a quick vibrato while the
tonque/jaw are
doing a pumping action to enhance and speed up the vibrato even more. I
sort
of stumble upon it on my own, I wasn't taught this one. I don't here
many
players using it, but i'm sure plenty are capable of it.
One last thing, my upcoming instructional dvds/google videos will be
out by
early August. That's the plan at least, and Bill yes I will be doing
thorough instruction, not just playing. Anyone can email me at
shellist@xxxxxxxxxxx for the lowdown, ok. Thanks and hopefully I'll see
you
guys out at SPAH. I'll be there for a couple of days this year. Take
care
and feel free to copy and paste this on harp-l.
Ronnie Shellist

He also added an daddendum:

> and i am also bending the note while doing what i described at 1:55

And I see that Ronnie wants to post to harp-l directly, which would be
cool.

So, I guess we were all right to one extent or another. I do admit
that, in
re-reading my post, I sounded a bit too high on my horse. I admit to
getting
carried away when we talk about great harpers whom I've met FTF like
Ronnie.

Again, thanks for the replies, and a special thanks to Ronnie for
answering
my query so promptly. And another hats off to Bob Laughlin for putting
Ronnie's youtube site on the "harp-l map."

Michelle

BTW, Alex, I certainly don't claim to have perfected ~anything~
harmonica-wise! But I am carefully studying Ronnie's vibrato, as I
haven't
had the kind of results Matt and Ben refer to with ~my~ tongue
vibrato.

Previous posts:
> >>> "MLeFree" <mlefree@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 22.07.2006 3:19:48
>>>
> Bob Laughlin writes:
> > I found this guy, Ronnie Shellist, on Youtube.com, doing a search
> > for "harmonica" clips.
> >
> > Here's the clip in question:
> >
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hs_OchfmBc8 
> >
> > First, this guy is, if I am not mistaken, tongue blocking? I use
> > pucker exclusively, have for thirty-some years, save for octaves,
> > and resist the idea of changing my whole approach at this late
> > date, but there are things I simply cannot do with pucker alone.
> >
> > Next, at 1:55 into the clip he uses a kind of vibrato (along with
> > hand effects) that sounds like what I would call "phasing",,I've
> > heard others do this, but never found out how to do it myself, to
> > any degree. Is it done with the diaphragm? the throat? the
> > tongue? It's something I definitely want to add to my harp
tool-bag.
> >
> > Thanks in advance.
> >
> > Bob Laughlin, Stater Brothers resident whistler and harp player,
> > Huntington Beach, Ca
>
> Well, Bob, first I have to thank you for pointing us to Ronnie
Shellist's
> videos on youtube.com. They're great! I wish there were more than 8.
I
hope
> he'll continue to add more.
>
> Ronnie is a *superb* Denver harper, and yes he is a tongue blocker.
> He's got all the techniques nailed. A joy to watch and listen to.
His
youtube
> videos are a super opportunity to watch a terrific harmonicist in
action.
They
> tell much about his technique if you know what to look for and watch
them
> closely. I'm hoping Ronnie shows up at SPAH, 'cuz he'll raise the
bar
> fer sure.
>
> As to the vibrato, Ronnie uses his diaphragm. Contrary to an earlier
post
> you just can't get that kind of compression with a tongue vibrato.
Learn
to
> cultivate a good diaphragmatic vibrato and you will reap many
rewards.
> You may have noticed that Ronnie has terrific hand technique, too.
The
> combination of a strong diaphragmatic vibrato and great hand
technique
> (along with his tongue blocking) puts Ronnie near the top of my list
of
> blues harpers. I just wish he was more visible in the harmonica
community
> because his input would be quite valuable. I'd like to know who he
> learned from, for one thing (who is JP Allen?). I'm waiting for that
CD of
his,
> too.
>
> And, yes, here are ~lots~ of things you can do with TB'ing that you
can
only
> simulate with puckering. I've just begun to scratch the surface of
> 'em...
> 8^)
>
> Hoping to see a bunch of y'all at SPAH!
>
> Michelle