[Harp-L] Re: 17 note and 12 note scales

[Jonathan Ross <jross38@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

"Thanks to JR for a very detailed and informative reply. I bow to his  
superior knowledge in this matter. Any conflicts between what I said  
and what JR said should be resolved in favor of JR's comments."

No need to bow.  Thanks to you for crossposting this--I find Yahoo a  
bit annoying and so don't read harptalk as much as I obviously should.

I've really only recently discovered 17TET, but I really find what  
I've heard so far quite interesting.  Some very nice tonal  
differences from both the common 12TET and 19TET, which I'm a bit  
more familiar with.

Harmonica-wise, it's not very easy to make a really 17TET harmonica-- 
I've been trying to figure it out today.  It can be done, but not  
particularly cleanly.  If you didn't use all 17 notes that would be a  
big help, but then why use a TET at all--why note use a more chord- 
based temperament of some sort?  Thus the dilemma.

"It will take a whole lot to get me to think in terms of a 17-note  
scale, especially since, in most of my compositions, I'm barely using  
half of the 12-note scale, and I'm pretty sure that adding another 5  
notes is not likely to improve either my skills or the audience's  
pleasure."

The later I cannot say--if you did it well, I'm sure the audience  
would enjoy it.  As for the former, it's very easy.  Indeed, it fits  
in more closely with Western theory than does a twelve-tone chromatic  
scale (19TET works better, but 17TET is close).  Simply put, this is  
the scale:

C Db C# D Eb D# E F Gb F# G Ab G# A Bb A# B C

From a notation perspective, it's simple.  From a practical  
standpoint, no harder than learning enharmonic notes (there are only  
two sets: E# is F and Fb is E; B# is C and Cb is B--though I suppose  
you could use the A# for Cb, depending on context and so forth).   
19TET is easier theory-wise, as it posits two enharmonic notes: E#/Fb  
and B#/Cb.  But, that's really not a huge difference.

"Besides which, how do you notate a 17-note scale on a G clef?"

Um, I don't know.  I think there has been a lot of confusion about  
the whole topic.  Let's look at two different things: temperament and  
scale.  A 17-note scale is one with 17 notes in the octave.  A 17- 
note temperament is the same.  But, in the temperament you normally  
would only play the same, standard 7-note scales as in any other  
temperament (for example)--rarely would you use the whole 17-notes  
unless you were doing something rather atonal.  The same is true of a  
12-note temperament and a 12-note scale.  How do you notate a fully  
chromatic scale in a G-clef?  Don't you have competing notes per  
staff line?

Let's say you're playing an instrument in 12TET (the standard piano,  
for example) and you are playing in the key of Bb.  The notation will  
have two flats in the key signature.  Now in 17- or 19TET, what if  
you're playing an instrument (a modified piano, or a synthesizer,  
many of which can do this) in the key of Bb?  The notation will have  
two flats in the key signature.  No difference.  That's because  
Western theory is not based on a 12-note scale, but rather a 20 or 21  
note scale.  That's because it evolved before 12TET became popular-- 
long before.  Thus, in notation Eb is not the same note as D#, and in  
many instruments it still isn't.  In 17- or 19TET it wouldn't be.   
Only in a 12-tone system do they have to be the same note (actually,  
they really aren't the same note in non 12TET 12-tone systems--but  
when playing if you only have twelve notes available, you're out of  
luck, and thus may have to play an Eb when you really should play D#).

It really isn't hard.  All it takes is to remember that the 12-tone  
system is a crutch and a kludge on a much broader and older system  
which goes well beyond 12-tones or 12TET, and that the theory and  
notation are based on the older system, not the newer one (with  
exceptions--serialism and atonality are fairly dependent on 12TET in  
theory, as is much of jazz theory).




 ()()    JR "Bulldogge" Ross
()  ()   & Snuffy, too:)
`----'