RE: [Harp-L] re: a question

["Jonathan R. Ross" <jross38@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

WVa Bob wrote:
>can someone on the list cite a CD where any overblower really plays
jazz >ballads with the authority of the best chromatic players? Without
>intonation problems?

I've heard many good ballads, but as you point out none in this vein.
I've come to the conclusion that it can't be done on a single diatonic
in standard tuning (or probably any tuning).  I'd love to be proven
wrong, but as a few recent examples posted to this list have shown, it's
not even close.  

>yes, there are other instruments that have intonation problems...the
point >is does that excuse intonation problems of the magnitude the
diatonic >presents?

No, it shouldn't.  Moreover, while other instruments have intonation
problems, I don't see a movement to ignore those or dismiss those who
point them out.  Also, when focusing on intonation (a major problem) I
think we ignore the issue of timbre differences.  That is as big an
issue in many ways.  And when the two are combined (vast timbre
differences between natural and altered notes and massive intonation
problems) it can lead to some rather painful listening.

>Still, as Richard Hunter says, we'll see down the road who is correct
>about this.

Why wait?  The path of extended bending/overbending on a single harp has
been tried for twenty years, and I don't hear it getting much closer to
the goal of true musicality without the problems stated.  So when is
when?  Is thirty years enough?  Forty?  Or at some time can a more
honest critique emerge which doesn't dismiss the problems but rather
acknowledges that they are indeed insurmountable.

Chris wrote:
>Howard absolutely can play anything in any key.  I'm not talking
>blues or rhythm changes in all keys, I have heard/seen him play Have
>you met miss Jones, Donna Lee and Giant Steps in all 12 keys.  You
>can not judge him on his recorded effort nor can you get your bearing
>to listening to him oh PHC and the like.

I've seen this argument many times, and it was also espoused by Rob
P.(sorry, not going to try spelling that name, as I've messed it up many
times in the past:).  But, he doesn't do this on recordings, so perhaps
even if he can he knows not to because he thinks the results wouldn't be
acceptable to a wider audience.  I shouldn't make such assumptions, but
until I hear it for myself from Levy or anyone else, I won't believe it
can be done--especially not when I haven't heard anyone come remotely
close, including when I've heard Howard live.

>>>I don't see why changing harps in the middle of a song, a melody or
>>a
>>>bar is something which isn't considered as a possibility.  
>
>It is, Lee Oskar does this all the time.

Yes, but why did you want to make it clear that you don't?  Why isn't it
something you try to incorporate into your playing?  The same with
alternate tunings?  That's what I'd like to know.

>What do you consider to be a highly complex song? Body and Soul? Joy
>of Spring? Giant Steps? Flight of the bumble bee? Trust me these
>tunes are not an issue on the diatonic to a person with the proper
>skill set.

Post examples and let's see if I agree with you.  I know you think you
have those skills, and I feel you are as technically proficient as most
anyone out there, but that doesn't mean I would necessarily agree with
you that you can play these in a manner which is really musical or
acceptable as you claim can be done.  It may be a question of taste, but
I would expect no intonation issues, no timbre issues and no timing
issues: nothing that would distract from the performance.

Now, I do agree that there are a lot of pieces which can be done quite
well on the diatonic, but not necessarily in any key.  Take "Sumertime",
for example.  That's an easy piece, with simple chord changes and a
simple melody (a diatonic melody, in fact).  It is eminently playable on
the diatonic.  But, I don't think it's eminently playable in any
position on the diatonic, and nothing I've heard has told me anything
differently.  I would bet the same would be true of the songs you
mentioned, but I'd love to hear examples so I can be proven wrong.  

Oh, "Flight of the Bumblebee" is ideally suited to a Polyphonia--I don't
know why you'd use any other harmonica for it, actually.

>Who do you consider the "Top Overblowers"?

Basically the people you mentioned--I've been to conventions and heard
them all, so I know what I speak about.  I wouldn't necessarily list
them in the same order as you, but it's the familiar names: Levy, you,
Holmes, George, Sandy, Iceman, etc...All are excellent players, but none
can play in any key, from what I've heard, and all are susceptible to
major intonation and timbre problems when trying to stretch beyond
normal approaches to the instrument.

Rob P wrote:
>Chromatic conceptualiztion and execution on the Diatonic is NOT an easy
>task, it requires a different set of rules, techniques and LOTS of
practice
>not unlike most instruments, they all have their strengths and
weakness'.
>Whether or not the world (the listener or producer) is ready for this
is
>TOTALLY up to the player and it looks likes alot of these daring
players >are starting to make a mark...onward I say!,-)

As do I.  But I say the main road that's been followed and promoted is a
dead end, and is proving moreso as time goes on.  Rather than moving
forward, I hear stagnation.  I hear the same problems that have been
there for ten plus years and no real progress.  To me that says a new
paradigm is needed, a new approach to the goal.  To me that says people
have to stop talking about "opening up the mind" to what the instrument
can do and start looking at what the instrument can't do as well.  And
then start looking at different ways to solve those problems.  From
everything I've heard you cannot eliminate intonation and timbre issues
from bends and overbends completely--and completely is the same as
acceptably (out of tune is just that, not soulful, not with feeling,
just out of tune).  So the pathway of just sticking with a single
diatonic for playing any song (even with the idea of switching harps for
each song) seems to me to be a dead-end.  Thus, maybe it's time to start
really seeing what other ways can be brought in to really make progress
towards the goal of playing complex musics on the diatonic, and not just
in a "gee-whiz, I didn't know it could do that" way.  I don't know what
all those techniques may be, but I would guess you'd need to incorporate
what has been learned from the current dominant approach and add things
that have been pushed aside.

We shall see.  Actually, we shall hear.

>Howard's playing is requested by some of the "Heaviest" names in the
Music
>Biz, so he must be doing something right,-) He IMHO, he has opened
WORLDS
>for the Diatonic. Much like Larry Adler did for Legit Chromatic and
Toots
>did for Jazz Chromatic and Little Walter & Paul Butterfield did for
Blues
>Diatonic and Stevie did for Funk Chromatic.

Perhaps, but in all cases the door is still mostly shut.  How many
classical harmonica players are making a living at it full-time?  How
many jazz diatonic players?  How many jazz chromatic players, for that
matter?  The door may never open up much more than it already is, but
maybe it will.  In any event, is that the issue, or is the issue more
what are the real strengths, weaknesses and limitations of the
instrument.





 oo    JR "Bulldogge" Ross
()()   & Snuffy, too:)
`--'