[Harp-L] Seydel thirds thing

["Jonathan R. Ross" <jross38@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

Winslow wrote:
>This is listed but a tremolo but isn't.

Ah, but note this passage from Seydel's website:

"Anyways, the intervals are a bit detuned, so we have a nice waving
tremolo 
sound.
Because of the sound, the instrument here could be named a Tremolo."

I'm not sure I agree with their reasoning, but that's not really why I
wanted to quote the above--but more on that later.

>The second set of reeds produce harmonies to the first set, and the
>tuning looks rather strange, but also like it would automatically
>produce a lot of cool harmonies:

Yes, but I'd be a bit wary of playing this in an ensemble--again, more
later.

Emile wrote:
>Looks for the most part major and minor thirds.
>My music history is a litle foggy so I don't recall what pitch H used
to >be.

In the German system, "H" is what we would call "B" whereas their "B" is
what the English system calls "A#" or "Bb" (things get trickier if we go
outside of the twelve tone system, but we can ignore that for this
time).  Thus you get the following per hole (m3 means minor 3rd, M3
major--trying to fit the hole spacing and major/minor in didn't leave
for typical notation--this will probably get mixed up anyway):

Blow:  m3   M3     *     m3    M3     m3      ^m3     M3      M3      M3

Hole:  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19
20 
Draw:     m3    M3    M3   **     m3      M3      M3      m3      M3
m3

*--it is difficult to say whether this is a minor third G-Bb (in our
notation) or a major sixth Bb-G.  This would make a bit of difference in
how you tuned, as I'd tend to make the lower note the reference pitch to
the tonic and then tune the mutation above it pure to the lower note,
and thus not necessarily in tune with the reference per se.

**--the same problem as above, so is this the fifth D-A or the fourth
A-D?  Since this is said to be in the key of "G" I've assumed that in
general the pitches listed below the hole line in the Seydel graph are
lower (this begins with G) up until the predicted German-Major-Diatonic
tuning shift at hole 13--noted with a ^ where the notes above the hole
numbers become the lower pitches).

In both of the above I'd expect the pattern to be the opposite of how
the pitches are listed on Seydel's website.  However, that's the way
they are listed and musically the sixth and fifth make as much sense as
if they more slavishly followed the pattern of major and minor thirds.

Which brings me back to the Seydel passage I quoted.  I don't know what
they mean by "the intervals are a bit detuned".  Well, I do know, but I
can't see a reason for having out of tune thirds.  I've encountered this
in organs, and trust me it is not a pleasant thing.  I'm not talking
about the out-of-tune nature of a temperament, but rather when an key or
hole is intended to make a compound sound (both pitches merge into a
pure chord, which is what I'd want here) and it is not locked in tune,
the effect is quite jarring.  But, maybe that's what they intend here?
I hope so, as other theories aren't quite so pleasant.

Now, as to playing with others, pure tuned thirds tend to not
necessarily work well with tempered thirds (ie, guitars, pianos and
such).  It can be done, but can also be an area of significant problems.
I suppose this wouldn't be too categorically different from playing in
two different tunings systems (ie, harmonica in a just intonation or a
compromise temperament and the others in 12TET), but it would be
something for which I'd want to keep my ears open.  

Still, a very interesting beastie to say the least.  I know that fifth
tuned Weiner models have existed in the past, but this is a much more
dynamic (and demanding) system than simple quints throughout.  My hate
is off to Seydel for producing such an exotic bird in this age dominated
by pigeons and gulls.  I have never really gotten along with the Weiner
system (sadly even the superb Suzuki Baritone and I didn't make a
match), but this might be worth a try.  Barring that, I might see about
making this in a Knittlinger style--no theoretical reason any dual-reed
design couldn't be modified to fit.




 oo    JR "Bulldogge" Ross
()()   & Snuffy, too:)
`--'