[Harp-L] Just something to ponder...Alternate tunings for Chords
Thanks for the comments Tim. I appreciate your opinions. You probably noticed I was also laughing at myself about some of this. This was more for fun than anything. But I wouldn?t put it out of the realm of possibility either. A Slide/Chromatic with good seals may not be a possibility on production harps today, but from what I hear, Power?s CX10 and 12 custom harps are pretty darn good, at a cost. And I know there are cheaper, easier, and more practical ways to skin the cat. My bit of fun here was to see how close I could come to a single all purpose harp. I do disagree with one of your points however. Take a closer look at the layout. All notes are available and all major and minor chords are available for every note. The idea here was to keep from having to have a harp for each key. With this tuning and sharing of two plates, it?s not needed. That?s the cool feature that I was trying to point out in answering this other person?s question. It may not be the most!
practical but certainly isn?t impossible either with current harp designs and available tunings. My bigger hangup is size. A smaller version of this, about the size of a twelve hole diatonic would be nice.
I also apologize for the layouts not coming out well after sending in my response. I?m trying again. Hopefully the text below will straighten those layouts out better.
-Dave
*****************************************************************************
I think the allure of the Slide Harp -- two diatonics just a button
press away! -- is dashed by the poor quality generally found in that
design. The mouthpiece is very leaky and the plates just aren't up
to snuff, and even if you can get it to work right, it's bigger and
fatter. On top of that, you'd have to have one for each key in
which you planned to use this scheme.
In considering which intonation to select for a harmonica it's best
to think about how it's going to be used. If you're not playing in
a lot of less common positions (besides 1st/2nd/3rd) and not playing
alongside another chromatic instrument like a piano or a guitar and
not playing precise single note melodies, you likely won't hear too
much dissonance in a compromise tuning scheme to make it worth going
to all this effort. If I was playing a tune that required a precise
melody or doubling, then also wanted to use chords in a backing
part, I'd just use two diatonics. If nothing else, it would be a
lot cheaper!
-tim
Tim Moyer
Working Man's Harps
http://www.workingmansharps.com/
David Staley wrote:
*****************************************************************************
I was just reading some information on tuning schemes
on Pat Missins page
http://www.patmissin.com/tunings/tun2.html and was
wondering... Since just intonation sounds better in
chords and equal temperament tuning is more melodic,
would it be possible or has it been done to make or
rework a slide harp or chromatic harp (whichever would
be best suited) so that with the button out the harp
is just intonation tuned for playing chords, and then
when the button is pushed the harp switches to equal
tuning for melodies?
*******************************************************
*******************************************************
********************************************************
This message was posted on another forum. I was going
to respond to it but couldn't cut and paste into it so
below is my response.
********************************************************
Oh all right, since you asked, I?ll share with you what I?ve been toying with recently. I?ve been working on a number of alternate tunings. One of them I?ve applied to diatonics and am now working on a chromatic version that does just as you suggest. Be patient through this long diatribe of mine and I?ll get to it near the end.
First, I must admit I?m just a beginner. But I have an insatiable need to understand how things work, tear them apart and create my own Frankensteins. I never seem to be satisfied and go through this with almost everything I touch. Recently, I?ve become interested in alternate tunings looking for a more versatile layout than Richter. Initially I came up with the spiral tuning and found that it was already being used but not very popular. Heaven knows why, because it seems very intuitive to me. Yet I still wasn?t satisfied. I combed Pat Missin?s body of work and Magic Dick?s patents. (By the way, just because someone has a patent doesn?t make them the first ones to think about it or even that the patent is defendable. Patent officers make mistakes all the time. I doubt his patent is very defendable because of the existence of so much relevant prior art. What I am presenting probably isn?t the first time it?s been thought of either. But I can say that I came up with i!
t on my own. I present it freely and welcome discussion. I also welcome any opinions, feedback, or comments for criticism or improvement.) Nevertheless, with regard to the tuning I?ve been working on, I can?t seem to find reference to it even on Pat Missin?s website. It could be buried in his site somewhere, there?s a lot of information there.
As I have said, I was looking for a more versatile tuning with a more comprehensive choice of chords and was intrigued by the spiral tunings but wasn?t quite satisfied with the diatonic spiral. The tuning scheme I?ve been working on is assembled by using parts of this circular or spiral chromatic string:
A C# E G# B Eb F# Bb C# F G# C Eb G Bb D F A C E G B D F# A
Looking closely at this string, you?ll find the circle of fifths so I call this the Circle of Fifths tuning. Stack a few of these strings on top of each other like one big harmonica and you get.:
4 3 4 3 4 3 4 3 4 3 4 3 4 3 4 3 4 3 4 3 4 3 4 3
G# C Eb G Bb D F A C E G B D F# A C# E G# B Eb F# Bb C# F G#
A C# E G# B Eb F# Bb C# F G# C Eb G Bb D F A C E G B D F# A
B Eb F# Bb C# F G# C Eb G Bb D F A C E G B D F# A C# E G# B
Bb D F A C E G B D F# A C# E G# B Eb F# Bb C# F G# C Eb G Bb
Geez, what a mishmash, but take any 10 hole chunk out of the above, apply it to a semivalved harp (valves placed on each hole of the draw plate only), and you get something like this:
Valved Blow Bend A C# E G# B Eb F# Bb C# F
Blow Bb D F A C E G B D F#
Hole 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
Draw C E G B D F# A C# E G#
Draw Bend B Eb F# Bb C# F G# C Eb G
This is a C version that starts with a CEG major chord on the draw. Alternating between blows and draws up the scale gives you each chord in the C major scale except that the seventh chord in the sequence is a B minor chord instead of a B diminished chord. One usually uses the vii diminished chord for some level of dissonance which is relatively easy to accomplish here by bending the minor chord a bit. In other words, pick any three or four notes in a row and it will give you a major or minor chord.
Major Scale Sequence
I ii iii IV V vi vii I
DFA FAC ACE CEG
CEG EGB GBD BDF#
Minor Scale Sequence
i II III iv v VI VII i
FAC ACE CEG EGB
EGB GBD BDF# DF#A
One can just as easily pick out a tuning that starts with a with a minor chord instead of a major chord which has advantages that you will see later.
When you look closer, other cool things start popping out too. First to note are that the 2nd position key of G has the exact same blow/draw pattern as the 1st position except it?s moved 2 holes over. And so is the 3rd position and so on. In addition the minor key is represented too. For instance E minor uses the same notes as G major and so you have a harmonica that doubles in usefulness with minor key patterns that are all the same as well. This one of the reasons you may want to start the draw row with an A rather than a C. You get the corresponding minor key.
Another interesting thing happens too. You?ll find that for the minor Blues scale, the three ?Blue notes? are draw bends, right where you want them. Not only that but to play blues, you?ll find that the the blow/draw pattern for a blues scale on this tuning is almost identical to the one used for the 2nd position blues pattern on a Richter harmonica.
G blues scale on the Circle of Fifths tuning
C G
G D
Bb C# F
G blues scale on the Richter tuning. ( i.e. 2nd position on a C harmonica)
C G
G D F
Bb C#
The only difference is that with the Circle of Fifths tuning, the F is a draw bend, not just a draw.
You also get a whole other set of keys on the draw bend and blow bend rows. For instance, below C E G is B Eb F# . Alternating the draws and bends, you?ll find the B major scale. (I?m still not good enough yet to bend full chords to use these extra keys effectively but it can be done and I?m sure it?s a cinch for some)
Sure, there are disadvantages too. First is that, you don?t get all the notes in a major key on just the draws and blows. Though you don?t have to overblow to get any not you still need to bend to get to some of those notes. This may not be suitable for very quick playing. Second, though every set of consecutive notes is a consonant major or minor chord. you don?t get the convenient feature of having the tonic chord everywhere you blow on a Richter layout. Also, unless you have lips as wide as the Mississippi, you don?t get the ability to do octaves. But this may be a blessing in disguise because it opens itself up for just tuning intervals quite easily. (You only really need two interval ratios, 6/5 and 5/4). So far I have an F/C/G harp like the following in a diatonic harp:
Valved Blow Bend D F# A # E G# B Eb F# Bb
Blow Eb G Bb D F A C E G B
Hole # 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
Draw F F A C E G B D F# A C#
Draw Bend E G# B Eb F# Bb C# F G# C
If it works out well, I think one could get by nicely with 4 harps.
F A C E G B D F# A C E G Bb D F A
E G# B Eb F# Bb C# F G# B Eb F A C# E G#
And If I never get the hang of bending full chords, seven or eight harps should be more than sufficient:
F,F#,G,G#,A,Bb,B,and G
Ok, so how can this apply to a chromatic style harmonica? Well, with the availability of half-valved harps, XB-40?s, Discrete Combs, etc. I personally don?t have much desire for a chromatic unless it can give me some additional chord choices. Let?s take a look at what can be done using a Circle of Fifths tuning with twelve holes in a Chromatic layout like this:
Slide Out
Valved Blow Bend B D F# A C# E G# B Eb F# Bb C#
Blow C Eb G Bb D F A C E G B D
Hole # 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
Draw D F A C E G B D F# A C# E
Draw Bend C# E G# B Eb F# Bb C# F G# C Eb
Slide In
Valved Blow Bend B Eb F# Bb C# F G# C Eb G Bb D
Blow C E G B D F# A C# E G# B Eb
Hole # 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
Draw D F# A C# E G# B Eb F# Bb C# F
Draw Bend C# F G# C Eb G Bb D F A C E
With this rig you get chromatic operation plus all the major and minor chords for each note by selecting slide in or slide out. For this particular tuning you also get the most popular major keys on the blow and draw notes. For Slide Out, you get low F, C, and G and for Slide In, you get low D,A, and E. It?s not easy, I admit, probably on a par with performing overblows in context. All the other keys and chords are available by bending except for Bb which can be done by bending too but takes a little more work. Now this tuning structure could be made in other keys too but for a ?stranded on a desert island? choice for a versatile harmonica, this is the best I could come up with. To build one of these, I?d like a 12 hole chromatic about the size of a Hering Master Solo (don?t exist as far as I know). There are some that come close. If you want to see some really nice harmonicas that are built as half valved chromatics, check out Brendan Power?s excellent site. His !
CX12?s and cut down CX10?s are very cool. I?m thinking of doing this project on the new Hering Vintage 40 Chromatic. It might be small enough for my needs.
And when this becomes the best thing since brass reeds (Hah!!) all I ask is that the harmonica companies and customizers send me one of their first production models. That isn?t so much to ask, is it? Ahh well, it was fun playing with this and maybe it answers your question.
Dave
This archive was generated by a fusion of
Pipermail 0.09 (Mailman edition) and
MHonArc 2.6.8.