RE: [Harp-L] tongue roll - same as tongue flutter?

["MLeFree" <mlefree@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Tom Ball replied to Gary's query re: the "tongue roll":
> Indeed it's true Sonny often trilled the tip of his tongue against
> the face of the harp.  But to be honest, I could never ascertain
> whether he was doing so strictly from side to side, or whether he was
> just bouncing it very quickly up and down (i.e. north and south) over
> two holes.... or possibly he was using a sort-of circular combination
> of both?  In any event, he certainly used tongue rolls to great
> effect!

And, then Colin Epstein mentioned:
> I once saw a guy named Jimmie Wood playing harp with Pinetop Perkins,
> and he did a "trill" with no visible hand or head movement.  So I'm
> guessing he did it much like Sonny's method described here.  I was
> pretty impressed that he was able to get the warble without the wiggle.

I have heard of a technique called "tongue flutter."  I've been told that
it's done by rapidly lifting and replacing the tongue over some combination
of holes.  It's not a "trill" as achieved by head or hand shake, so it is
not externally visible.  It's very delicate on the ears and sometimes very
difficult (for me) to tell whether it's a "flutter" or a "trill" I'm
listening to.  Now there's a "tongue roll" that I need to learn about, too.
Maybe the tongue roll is the same thing as a tongue flutter?

I personally find the "tongue flutter" an elusive technique.  I'd swear I
hear Little Walter and Sonny Terry using these tongue flutters, but then
again I have difficulty pointing out a specific example.  Can anyone shed
some more light on this technique?  How many holes are covered with the
tongue?  I can't seem to do it with less than 2-3 holes, but I think I hear
it done with only one.  I find it nearly impossible to twist my tongue into
the "vertical" orientation that would be required to "flutter" a single
hole.  So, I can't do it with only one hole and it doesn't sound right if I
use more than one hole.  Also, the motion involved is a bit mysterious.
Gary mentioned the tongue is tilted slightly up and moved side-to-side.  Tom
mentioned bouncing it up and down.  No one mentioned actually lifting it and
replacing it repeatedly.

Can anyone cite some examples I can study?  I don't recall seeing it in your
LW/BW or ST "licks" books, Tom.

Many thanks,

Michelle