Re: [Harp-L] The 'Flexible Gospel' according to Rob P (was TB/Pucker)(long)

Pierre <plavio@xxxxxxxxxxxx> · Tue, 19 Apr 2005 20:04:31 -0400

Good post Rob,
You quoted:

7. Tongue becomes like a finger helping to better line up with the
holes

And said:

This I don't quite understand and would like an example of??

I think Joe means that when you have a wide (TB) interval jump you can't 
land between two holes the way you can when puckering, thus avoiding the 
occasional unwanted grace note. My first reaction to this is who cares since 
you get better and better as time goes on and since most times it does not 
matter, but really that depends on context and if your a pro you should not 
hit adjacent notes.
Like you, I feel everyone should learn both pucker and TB, but its a 
question of priority. Thousands of things to learn and too little time so 
people chose a set of techniques. For example should one master OBs and ODs 
first or TB, or should one learn more positions, more scales, rhythms... 
What about blow bends, before moving on, how well does one play that end of 
the harp, I can blow bend well enough, but have hardly any repertoire up 
there, also not a great amount of dexterity. Now if you're a pro, I think 
you must eventually learn everything even if it takes 40 years. But even 
then, some pros just like one end of the harp and they do it so well you 
can't really fault them as the sounds they can get out of that little harp 
are to die for (I listen and I just start laughing in disbelief). Kudos to 
those who can do it all without sacrificing anything. I have not seen such a 
player, yet...
Pierre.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Robert Paparozzi" <chromboy@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>

To: <harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx>

Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 10:54 AM

Subject: [Harp-L] The 'Flexible Gospel' according to Rob P (was 
TB/Pucker)(long)

Tim Moyer posted a list from Filisko's seminar in Texas and although Joe 
makes some

excellent and observant points on embouchures choices, there were a few 
points

I felt uncomfortable with as a Player AND as a Teacher. I wasn't at this 
class in Austin so I'm writing based on Joe's notes from that class that 
were posted on Harp-L.
I guess I should preface my comments below by mentioning that I'm a friend

of Joe's, he has built me some of the finest Harps I own, he has an immense

amount of knowledge on the physics of the instrument and how it translates

into the music that comes out of it. He is a TERRIFIC teacher, has a heart 
of

GOLD, is probably one of THE best Teachers/Players of Vintage Style Blues

and Country Blues on Diatonic that I know .....and I know lots!
   Joe goes out of his way to represent the 'widest' varieties of teachers 
at his legendary SPAH and Buckeye "Teach-Ins". I'm always proud to be a 
participant/teacher a his events.
Joe's method is EXCELLENT if  you are playing, the stylings
of certain Pre-War Players and certain Chicago Blues Masters.
However, there are many styles and ways to interpret and play "Blues" that 
aren't

"Regimentally" dictated by the recordings and techniques of some of the 
earlier

Blues Players. I think YES, you'll benefit immensely by learning TB and 
transcribing or learn note for note

what "the Fathers of Chi-Blues Harp" played....if then,  you wish to only 
play in that style, it's OK and at that point I would recommend  a 
Curriculum such a Dave Barrett's Chicago Blues Books, his books are well 
composed and excellent. In other words if 100% TB works for you and your 
respective style...fantastic!,  YOU have found YOUR Holy Grail and you will 
advance from there.
But, lets not discourage other Blues Harp players from using a 'healthy' 
combination of the TWO techniques. It's the 'open minded' approach that 
gives way to the creative players we're starting to see since 
Butterfield.....Levy (his disciples), Oskar, Popper, Ricci.....etc.etc....
Further, there are other styles that a "Diverse Diatonic player" should be

aware of ,if they're going to REALLY learn all the range and possibilities 
of

this instrument. ie: Irish, Bluegrass, Swing, Jazz, Funk, Rock,,,, and on &

on.
To say you can't get BIG tone or you won't REALLY be able to play "Chicago

Style" blues if you don't TB is absurd. "Blues" is a musical genre NOT an

embouchure technique...it's MUSIC first! There is no evidence at all that

TB=Better Tone. Just listen to Sonny Terry, Lee Oskar, Junior Wells, Paul

Butterfield, Don Brooks, Charlie McCoy, Norton Buffalo (U Blocks) all

had/have "Masterful" tone and full-bodied tone. These were players that 
"incorporated

BOTH embouchures into a masterful blend of MUSIC. Just because you don't

embrace a certain technique doesn't mean you aren't playing the MUSIC

correctly, it only means you aren't copying it "exactly" like the originator

played it. It's still blues and if played well it's just as valid as any 
other

rendition. I'll sight an example here, listen to Butterfield's playing on

"Fathers & Sons", would you say this is NOT real Chicago Blues because he

uses a  embouchure different than his predecessors?
   I'm NOT doing this post to start an embouchure debate, I'm just trying 
put a few 'alternatives' and options on the table and then the players can 
take what they need to continue a productive practice regimen.
   Yes, the TB technique does physically place your tongue in a position 
that "opens up" the back of your throat, (giving fuller tone) but, the same 
"openness" can be learned, practiced and easily incorporated with Pucker 
technique much like you learn to do different things in TB position.
I totally agree with Dennis G, you'll never sound like George "Harmonica" 
Smith if you don't make a total commitment to this technique (TB). But don't 
forget, you'll NEVER sound like YOU until you "cut" the musical umbilical 
cord and test out  new "Waters", even if they're not as Muddy (sorry, 
couldn't resist lightening up the tone a bit w/ a pun!,-)) BTW, Dennis does 
an excellent job in braving those those new "Waters" and has a very original 
approach to Diatonic AND Chromatic Harp. Dennis is also a master Teacher, 
Mic Technican, Bandleader and DJ too!!
   TB is a TOTAL GROOVE and has some terrific results, but it wasn't 
developed by Moses and is NOT the Gospel for playing Blues Harp.

   Don't get me wrong here, I have the utmost respect for Full Time TB'ers
and think it's terrific that they can "preserve" the Classic Tone via that
technique, but what irks me is the "Real Authentic Bluesman" approach, you
know, if you don't total TB, if you don't use a Bullet, if you don't use a
Bassman etc.YOU are not a CHICAGO BLUES PLAYER. Because if we start thinkin'
that way...then you might as well take a TOTAL purist approach and say "if
your not a Black from Chicago or the South, then YOU are not a REAL CHICAGO
BLUES PLAYER....and then it really gets silly......But that's for another
List to discuss.....
  Joe's "advantages" lists start with (or 'infers') the premise that

"Pucker" is a quicker or Easier Method to learn or a 'shortcut' to sidestep

the "Method of TB" used by the Masters. To list  the #1 advantage of

Pucker, as "Instant Gratification" is an immediate attempt to diminish this

very useful, legitimate and valuable technique we know as "Pucker".

To the contrary, I've had many students 'started' a TB'ers as it felt the 
most natural to THEM and they still have a hard time doing Pucker 
techniques.
   When I started on Diatonic in 1966, I followed the little Hohner paper

espousing the 'correct way' to produce single notes, so I learned to TB and 
it

worked fine and the bends were available (somewhat), but after 2 yrs of

playing, I realized that the hole 1,2 bends ..puckered were more 'useful' to

my overall approach. I have found some VERY useful ways of playing w/ 
Pucker.

But, I never abandon one technique choosing the other as THE Correct 
way....that for ME is way too limiting.
so I thought I'd make a few changes to Joe's list from MY perspective as a
player/teacher that utilizes BOTH techniques as integral parts of my playing
Diatonic (and Chromatic).
(Although I agree with most of Joe's List, I look at things from a different 
perspective.

My comments are under Joe's below.....)
I apologize for the long winded post, as I know we've spent a LOT of time on 
this topic, but I thought this was important to post to the wide and diverse 
audience we enjoy here at Harp-L. I'm very thankful we have such a forum it 
will only help in the nurturing of new talent and future giants,-)
The gospel according to Filisko (from Masterclass TBII):
Advantages for using puckering:
1. Instant gratification

1. Better proficiency in executing fast musical single notes lines with
intricate bends
2. Greater ease in obtaining tonguing or trumpeting effects

2. A more defining presence of each note, less muffled or muted tone
3. Greater accuracy in bending initially (?)

3. Greater accuracy in bending with more ease of control and faster
precision
4. Less friction or drag when moving around the harp
Advantages for using blocking:
1. Octaves and split intervals

YES! I agree
2. Effects - flutters (on & off) and trills (side to side)

YES! I agree
3. Side switching - double embouchure (two mouths)

YES! I agree
4. Better TECHNIQUE TONE by default - Not True

pulls and slaps are easier to  execute..

YES! I agree
5. Better HEAD TONE by default - tongue is positioned better (lower
in back)

Maybe so, but you can easily practice Pucker with a lower back tongue
position, get the same full tone.
6. Better HAND TONE by default - harp is deeper in mouth (easier to
position hands)

YES!
7. Tongue becomes like a finger helping to better line up with the
holes

This I don't quite understand and would like an example of??
   Evenmore interesting is taking this debate over to the Chromatic side,
there are many advantages to the using of BOTH embouchures on Chromatic. So
I think I'll save that for another thread......
Mind you, this is Joe's list, not mine, but having experienced him
demonstrating advanced tongue blocking techniques I have a whole new
area of professional development ahead.
-tim (el contrarionista)

Have FUN, be creative, keep an open mind and always LISTEN......

Bi-embouchurally yours,

Rob "Write your OWN Gospel" Paparozzi

_______________________________________________

Harp-L is sponsored by SPAH, http://www.spah.org

Harp-L@xxxxxxxxxx

http://harp-l.org/mailman/listinfo/harp-l 