Re: [Harp-L] The 'Flexible Gospel' according to Rob P (was TB/Pucker)(long)

["Planet Harmonica" <lists@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Rob,

I just want to say Amen to that.

You said it better than I did. 

I'm tired of this dictature of tone. Do all trumpet players strive for Louis Armstrong's sound ? 

Nope. 

Tone is a tool to produce music, and there is not one tone to be aimed for or to be had. In fact, I'd venture as far as saying that if your tone is consistently the big, fat, tone people associate with Chicago blues, then you're somewhat limited as a musician.

Another ear opening experience is hearing Michel Herblin live and unamplified. I may not like Michel's repertoire all that much, but his sound is just to die for... and it sounds nothing like the heavy gut-filled tone of Chicago blues, it's more like dripping honey...

Ben
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Robert Paparozzi 
  To: harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx 
  Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2005 4:54 PM
  Subject: [Harp-L] The 'Flexible Gospel' according to Rob P (was TB/Pucker)(long)


  Tim Moyer posted a list from Filisko's seminar in Texas and although Joe makes some
  excellent and observant points on embouchures choices, there were a few points
  I felt uncomfortable with as a Player AND as a Teacher. I wasn't at this class in Austin so I'm writing based on Joe's notes from that class that were posted on Harp-L.

  I guess I should preface my comments below by mentioning that I'm a friend
  of Joe's, he has built me some of the finest Harps I own, he has an immense
  amount of knowledge on the physics of the instrument and how it translates
  into the music that comes out of it. He is a TERRIFIC teacher, has a heart of
  GOLD, is probably one of THE best Teachers/Players of Vintage Style Blues
  and Country Blues on Diatonic that I know .....and I know lots!

      Joe goes out of his way to represent the 'widest' varieties of teachers at his legendary SPAH and Buckeye "Teach-Ins". I'm always proud to be a participant/teacher a his events.

  Joe's method is EXCELLENT if  you are playing, the stylings
  of certain Pre-War Players and certain Chicago Blues Masters. 

  However, there are many styles and ways to interpret and play "Blues" that aren't
  "Regimentally" dictated by the recordings and techniques of some of the earlier
  Blues Players. I think YES, you'll benefit immensely by learning TB and transcribing or learn note for note
  what "the Fathers of Chi-Blues Harp" played....if then,  you wish to only play in that style, it's OK and at that point I would recommend  a Curriculum such a Dave Barrett's Chicago Blues Books, his books are well composed and excellent. In other words if 100% TB works for you and your respective style...fantastic!,  YOU have found YOUR Holy Grail and you will advance from there.

   But, lets not discourage other Blues Harp players from using a 'healthy' combination of the TWO techniques. It's the 'open minded' approach that gives way to the creative players we're starting to see since Butterfield.....Levy (his disciples), Oskar, Popper, Ricci.....etc.etc....

  Further, there are other styles that a "Diverse Diatonic player" should be
  aware of ,if they're going to REALLY learn all the range and possibilities of
  this instrument. ie: Irish, Bluegrass, Swing, Jazz, Funk, Rock,,,, and on &
  on.

  To say you can't get BIG tone or you won't REALLY be able to play "Chicago
  Style" blues if you don't TB is absurd. "Blues" is a musical genre NOT an
  embouchure technique...it's MUSIC first! There is no evidence at all that
  TB=Better Tone. Just listen to Sonny Terry, Lee Oskar, Junior Wells, Paul
  Butterfield, Don Brooks, Charlie McCoy, Norton Buffalo (U Blocks) all
  had/have "Masterful" tone and full-bodied tone. These were players that "incorporated
  BOTH embouchures into a masterful blend of MUSIC. Just because you don't
  embrace a certain technique doesn't mean you aren't playing the MUSIC
  correctly, it only means you aren't copying it "exactly" like the originator
  played it. It's still blues and if played well it's just as valid as any other
  rendition. I'll sight an example here, listen to Butterfield's playing on
  "Fathers & Sons", would you say this is NOT real Chicago Blues because he
  uses a  embouchure different than his predecessors?

      I'm NOT doing this post to start an embouchure debate, I'm just trying put a few 'alternatives' and options on the table and then the players can take what they need to continue a productive practice regimen.

      Yes, the TB technique does physically place your tongue in a position that "opens up" the back of your throat, (giving fuller tone) but, the same "openness" can be learned, practiced and easily incorporated with Pucker technique much like you learn to do different things in TB position. 

  I totally agree with Dennis G, you'll never sound like George "Harmonica" Smith if you don't make a total commitment to this technique (TB). But don't forget, you'll NEVER sound like YOU until you "cut" the musical umbilical cord and test out  new "Waters", even if they're not as Muddy (sorry, couldn't resist lightening up the tone a bit w/ a pun!,-)) BTW, Dennis does an excellent job in braving those those new "Waters" and has a very original approach to Diatonic AND Chromatic Harp. Dennis is also a master Teacher, Mic Technican, Bandleader and DJ too!!

      TB is a TOTAL GROOVE and has some terrific results, but it wasn't developed by Moses and is NOT the Gospel for playing Blues Harp.

      
      Don't get me wrong here, I have the utmost respect for Full Time TB'ers
  and think it's terrific that they can "preserve" the Classic Tone via that
  technique, but what irks me is the "Real Authentic Bluesman" approach, you
  know, if you don't total TB, if you don't use a Bullet, if you don't use a
  Bassman etc.YOU are not a CHICAGO BLUES PLAYER. Because if we start thinkin'
  that way...then you might as well take a TOTAL purist approach and say "if
  your not a Black from Chicago or the South, then YOU are not a REAL CHICAGO
  BLUES PLAYER....and then it really gets silly......But that's for another
  List to discuss.....

     Joe's "advantages" lists start with (or 'infers') the premise that
  "Pucker" is a quicker or Easier Method to learn or a 'shortcut' to sidestep
  the "Method of TB" used by the Masters. To list  the #1 advantage of
  Pucker, as "Instant Gratification" is an immediate attempt to diminish this
  very useful, legitimate and valuable technique we know as "Pucker".
  To the contrary, I've had many students 'started' a TB'ers as it felt the most natural to THEM and they still have a hard time doing Pucker techniques.

      When I started on Diatonic in 1966, I followed the little Hohner paper
  espousing the 'correct way' to produce single notes, so I learned to TB and it
  worked fine and the bends were available (somewhat), but after 2 yrs of
  playing, I realized that the hole 1,2 bends ..puckered were more 'useful' to
  my overall approach. I have found some VERY useful ways of playing w/ Pucker.
  But, I never abandon one technique choosing the other as THE Correct way....that for ME is way too limiting.

  so I thought I'd make a few changes to Joe's list from MY perspective as a
  player/teacher that utilizes BOTH techniques as integral parts of my playing
  Diatonic (and Chromatic). 

  (Although I agree with most of Joe's List, I look at things from a different perspective.
  My comments are under Joe's below.....)

  I apologize for the long winded post, as I know we've spent a LOT of time on this topic, but I thought this was important to post to the wide and diverse audience we enjoy here at Harp-L. I'm very thankful we have such a forum it will only help in the nurturing of new talent and future giants,-)

  > The gospel according to Filisko (from Masterclass TBII):
  >
  > Advantages for using puckering:
  > 1. Instant gratification


   1. Better proficiency in executing fast musical single notes lines with
  intricate bends

  > 2. Greater ease in obtaining tonguing or trumpeting effects


  2. A more defining presence of each note, less muffled or muted tone

  > 3. Greater accuracy in bending initially (?)


  3. Greater accuracy in bending with more ease of control and faster
  precision

  > 4. Less friction or drag when moving around the harp
  >
  > Advantages for using blocking:
  > 1. Octaves and split intervals

  YES! I agree

  > 2. Effects - flutters (on & off) and trills (side to side)

  YES! I agree

  > 3. Side switching - double embouchure (two mouths)

  YES! I agree

  > 4. Better TECHNIQUE TONE by default - Not True

  >pulls and slaps are easier to  execute.. 

  YES! I agree

  > 5. Better HEAD TONE by default - tongue is positioned better (lower
  > in back)

  Maybe so, but you can easily practice Pucker with a lower back tongue
  position, get the same full tone.

  > 6. Better HAND TONE by default - harp is deeper in mouth (easier to
  > position hands)

  YES!

  > 7. Tongue becomes like a finger helping to better line up with the
  > holes

  This I don't quite understand and would like an example of??

      Evenmore interesting is taking this debate over to the Chromatic side,
  there are many advantages to the using of BOTH embouchures on Chromatic. So
  I think I'll save that for another thread......

  > Mind you, this is Joe's list, not mine, but having experienced him
  > demonstrating advanced tongue blocking techniques I have a whole new
  > area of professional development ahead.
  >
  > -tim (el contrarionista)


  Have FUN, be creative, keep an open mind and always LISTEN......
  Bi-embouchurally yours,
  Rob "Write your OWN Gospel" Paparozzi
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