Re: perfect harp amp.....

[PL500@xxxxxxx]

In a message dated 2/16/04 12:28:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
bluesmafia01@xxxxxxxxxxx writes:
What's the difference between an amp modeler (like the Pod and Digitech 
RP300's of the world) and having an effect pedal like an Ibanez TS-9 coloring your 
sound?

I mean, all of the overdrive/distortion effects on the market...well...most 
of them; advertise that they give you tube warmth, tube this, tube that.  Will 
make your amp sound like it's a (fill in the blank with the name of a vintage 
amp.)

Similarly, if an amp modeler isn't actually going through real tubes, gain 
stages, moving air and vibrating an amp/speaker, isn't it (the amp modeler) just 
an effect?  And the different amp simulations just different variances of the 
effect?  

A while ago, I had an old Zoom 1000 (or something like that) and it had 
cabinet simulations.  Half stacks and stuff like that.  Totally worthless for harp. 
 It was just a distorted, reverby mess.  The effects were kind of cool, but 
no where near as tasteful as having seperate stomp boxes.  

I can totally understand the argument for going straight into the PA and 
bypassing the need for an amp.  In fact, for those of you who go this route, I 
would suggest that you get in ear monitors and use those for your monitors, thus, 
it is nearly impossible for your to feedback and you can ALWAYS hear 
yourself.  I used to run a mic through a pre-amp, and then into a line of effects.   
Sounded great for recording.  Not so great for live performance.  (did about 
30-40 gigs this way.)

I realize there are at least 3 different schools of thought:

1.  People who have always used amps and are never going to switch
2.  People who are thinking of getting rid of their amp and using an amp 
modeler instead.
3.  People who are thinking of getting rid of their amp modeler and going 
back to an amp.

I went from 2, to 3, and am now in the school of thought 1.

The problem I originally had was I was using a guitar amp with too many 
12AX7's, not enough volume and not enough kick.  It was, in essence, a tube amp 
running on 1.5 (volume.)  May as well have been solid state, I guess.

I then moved to a mic =>tube mic preamp => eq => effects => DI

The problem I had was my tone was pretty thin, shrill and no amount of EQ'ing 
could really solve that.  My sound would change from gig to gig.  And unless 
I was standing out in the audience and playing my harp, there was no way for 
me to know.  I don't trust the typical sound guy to do anything (for harp) 
outside of setting the FOH level and leaving the EQ flat.  I mean, most small bar 
sound guys don't know how to mic drums...much less harp.  Most of the time we 
ran our own FOH mix.  But still, it left the harp lacking.

Now that I've switched to an amp, the harp is sounding a lot better.  

I think the original question was: What is the perfect harp amp?

For me, the perfect harp amp is my Jet IIR.  I dont' know much about 
different 15W class A amps to give much of a comparison, but here's the reason it 
works well for me:

It gets great tone and the tube configuration and the stomp boxes I'm using 
allow me to set the amp at "8" and get a great signal where I can always hear 
myself without feeding back.  

I'm using it with a 5 piece band: drums, guitar, bass, sax, harp.  We have a 
PA, so I'm not competing with the guitar player, or anyone for that matter, 
b/c it can all be mixed and sent through the Mains.

I play in a band where I need to play clean, dirty, and really dirty.  At 
times I also use a flanger, phaser, delays, envelope filters, and I run a 2nd 
channel with a Leslie.  All this goes in and out of my amp.  There are times when 
it doesn't make sense to bring so much stuff to a gig, so I also will switch 
mics and run a mic through a volume pedal and to the amp.  No more, no less.  
So versatility is important as well.  I'm willing to bet my amp sound is 
nowhere near the standard Chicago blues sound...but that's not what I'm going for.  

I have my amp on a stand so it's angled towards me so I can hear it.  I think 
my amp is pretty loud.  And if you're at a gig and you can't hear a 15W amp 
that's pointed right at your ear...you might be in a band that's playing too 
loud.  I specified GIG, b/c if you are in a small 10x10 room with 4 other people 
and you're all competing for sonic space...it's going to be loud and crappy 
sounding anyway.

Additionally, I had my amp modified to include a direct out (after all of the 
gain stages, right before the speaker.)  So if I wanted to, I could drive 
another amp/speaker if I wanted to, or I could just send the signal right to the 
PA (just in case there was shortage of mics, or mic inputs on the board.)

Now, I've not yet played a 1000 person room.  But for the typical 2-400 
person room, our PA works just fine to get the sound out to the front.  

I really don't know why someone would need a huge amp for...anything...but 
maybe for bigger venues where you're using a PA that can't handle the room?  Or 
maybe it's a tone thing.  

I'm not knocking anyone that uses big amps, or chooses to use an amp modeler. 
 This is what's worked for me.  

Does anyone know Alanis Morissette's harp set-up?

kidding.

Rob
Rob, 

The difference between a preamp/ pedal and modeling unit is that the modeling 
unit is sampling the sound and mimicing it digitally through a unit. Most 
preamps are analog and they tend to produce gain or drive the circuit of whatever 
is being amplified. I can't speak for the Zoom 1000 unit ,but I can speak for 
the Line 6 POD which I use and I must say it sounds great. The thing with 
modeling units is that they take a bit of time to perfect, it is not something 
which you are gonna break right out of the box and sound magnificient. It's a 
matter of modifying and saving settings, if you won't save settings and work 
with the unit it's no wonder that anyone would sound bad with it (trust me the 
POD has some doozies that just plain suck). Modeling units like setting up amps 
take some work. The Jet's are great amps for harp, and sound great for guitar 
as well. 

Also let me say there is a 4th school of thought; those who have tried amps 
and found that they simply pale in comparison to the advantages that a modeling 
unit has to offer. Amps are fine, but when you are running through the PA 
with a modeling unit with at least 4 to 5 different settings that sound fantastic 
at your disposal, its hard to reminisce about the old days of working with an 
amp that sounded lousy out front and had no versatility. Also I don't have to 
add stomp boxes to get effects (thereby killing my signal and muffling 
frequencies), I can just use the unit and taylor the effects I want from the unit 
itself. No slam against amps (I have played some of the best amps for harp), but 
I would never at this point go back to working with an amp. 

Andrew