Re: Minors and manners

[Bruce Steinberg <bruces@xxxxxxx>]

Whew.  Listen, George, I'm sorry, man.  Really.  If the
"dominant" use of all those capital letters is any measure of
your anguish and frustration at dealing with all this dumbness, I
sure don't want to have a hand in causing anyone that much pain,
regardless of who's right.  I'll back off and leave what's left
of this discussion to someone more expert and/or obsessive than
I.  (I knew I should've left this one alone. :)

However, in parting, I'd like to ask a few related questions (in
all seriousness, no kidding):

What is, say, a so-called "Cmaj7" chord -- C, E, G, B, right?
And if this isn't 1, 3, 5, >7< in the C major scale, what ~is~ it
composed of?

Or should this not accurately be called a "C major seventh" chord
at all, and if not, what should it be called?  Is it perhaps more
accurately just a "C major seven" chord (as in Cmaj+7)  For that
matter, is there any such thing as a "sevenTH" chord at all?

If one is to infer that "major chords" can only basically be
triads of the form 1, 3, 5 (or 1, 3, 5, 8) then there is a world
of players running around out there using the wrong terminology
calling this CEGB collection of notes a "C major seventh" chord.

You liken this exchange to a novel written with bad prose.
Believe me, as I writer it makes my teeth hurt when people use
"it's" instead of "its" for a possessive, and then defend it as
okay because lots of people do it.  It's not.  

And if this "seventh" stuff is having a similar effect on your
expert sensibilities (no sarcasm intended, honest :), I can
relate, and I'm sorry. 

However, an old boss used to tell me, "if the student hasn't
learned, the teacher hasn't taught."  Fortunately, I'm always
ready to learn, and stand to be corrected.  Just take it to heart
when folks don't get what you're saying;  sometimes the teacher
has to hear better where the student is coming from (and, in
return, may learn something in the process.)

And please don't yell the lesson -- it makes my teeth hurt (and
distracts me from it's message :).

Peace, B*

////////////////

re:

From: ah567@xxxxxxxxxxx (George W. Miklas)
Subject: Re: Minors and manners


Reading this post is like reading a novel written with no 
regard to good prose.  Lets examine this musical inacuracy.  
Let me begin by stating that both major and minor chords have 
the following scale tones:  135 or 1358.  Please keep in 
mind the precise definition of "flat" and "sharp" on this
topic as they both relate to DIATONIC KEY SIGNATURES. 

I believe that the author of the contained quotes maybe meant
"raise" and "lower" instead of "sharp" and "flat" which do have 
different meanings as follows:

Sharp:  to raise the diatonic note by half steps.
Flat:   to lower the diatonic note by half steps.

To sharp or flat a note, we must first specify a diatonic key
or tonal center.

Raise:  to raise the current note by the specified distance.
Lower:  to lower the current note by the specified distance.

To raise or lower a note does not require the acknowledgement
of key or tonal center.  

And if you want to include a rebuttal using "chromatic" or "jazz"
chords, then you will include the following:

Augmented:      to raise major/perfect intervals one half step.
Diminished:     to lower minor/perfect intervals one half step.

>"To alter a Major chord to a Dominant -- flat the seventh;
FIRST, A MAJOR CHORD DOES NOT HAVE A SEVENTH, SO THERE IS
NO SEVENTH TO FLAT.

> To alter a Major chord to a Minor -- flat the third and flat the
>seventh;
SECOND, BOTH MINOR CHORDS AS WELL AS MAJOR CHORDS DO NOT HAVE 
SEVENTHS SO THERE IS NO SEVENTH TO FLAT.

> To alter a Major chord to a [half-dim] -- flat the third, flat
>the fifth, and flat the seventh;
AGAIN, MAJOR CHORDS DO NOT HAVE SEVENTHS SO THERE IS NO SEVENTH TO FLAT.

> To alter a Major chord to a [full dim] -- flat the third, flat
>the fifth, and ~double-flat~ :) the seventh."  (Smiley mine.)
AGAIN, MAJOR CHORDS DO NOT HAVE SEVENTHS SO THERE IS NO SEVENTH TO FLAT.

>To alter a Minor chord to a Dominant -- sharp the third.  
AGAIN, MINOR CHORDS DO NOT HAVE SEVENTHS SO THEY CANNOT BECOME
A DOMINANT BY DOING ANYTHING TO THE THIRD.

DOMINANT CHORDS ARE **ALWAYS** CONSTRUCTED WITH THE SCALE TONES
1357 BUILT ON THE 5TH SCALE DEGREE OF THE TONIC.  NOTHING ELSE IS
DOMINANT EXCEPT FOR "SECONDARY DOMINANTS" WHICH ARE CONSIDERED
CHROMATIC CHORDS.  SINCE THIS DISCUSSION BEGAN WITH NATURAL SCALES,
THE DISCUSSION OF CHROMATICISM DOES NOT BELONG HERE.


Send flames to HARMONIC@xxxxxxxxxx

Peace,
George Miklas, Bass Harmonicat.