Re: [Harp-L] Triple reed lo D Auto Valve



I just got a batch of C and D SUB 30's.  They play much better out of the 
box than my original set.  By that, I mean the sympathetic reeds are gapped 
much better and there is less unwanted noise.  Bone stock, holes 4-10 play 
fantastic on the draw notes.  4-7 play great on the blow notes.  8-10 blow 
and 1-3 draw have issues in that they feel leaky, aren't as responsive as 
other holes and, in regards to 8-10 are hard to bend.

That being said, I personally have no use for the extra reeds in 1-3 and 
just block them off.  That makes them play extremely well when compared to 
other Richter harps.  Obviously, they benefit from regular gapping to your 
style, but that isn't a big deal to me.  Holes 8-10 blow benefit GREATLY 
from gapping for regular playing.  The same is true of other harps too, 
though.  Stock, the valved bends there are much more powerful than the blow 
bends.  This can be adjusted, though!

The legit issue with the SUB 30, IME, is that the Richter component doesn't 
play as well as traditional Richter harps that are 1/3 the price.  I can 
play a stock Marine Band and be very comfortable about how it sounds and 
feels and plays.  I can't say that about the SUB 30 stock (in regards to 
playing "regular" stuff).  The first D I got was pretty much unplayable. 
 Having received several in that key now, they are loads better.  In fact, 
holes 1-3 played fine.  They weren't noisey and the bends weren't hard. 
 The tone was breathy compared to the middle register, but I could probably 
play holes 1-7 as is and feel good about it.  The blow 8-10, though, would 
need help.  

The key of C has been easiest for me to play without modification, although 
it benefits from taping off the first three responder reeds.  The key of A, 
which I've tried fewer of, really struggles in 1-3 with the responder reed 
in play.

I love playing them, though, and anyone with some gapping skills and 
willingness to try taping off a few reeds will really like them.  





On Tuesday, November 13, 2012 9:34:00 PM UTC-6, Richard Sleigh wrote:
>
> Hi Winslow & Paul, 
>
> I am quoting your post & putting my comments in-between so this post does 
> not take up a lot of space: 
>
> W - "The problem with this configuration - and all three- and four-reed 
> combinations involving dedicated responder reeds, is that the rresponder 
> reeds will sound when you don't want them to." 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 
>
> R- That is a little like saying "The problem with chromatic harmonicas is 
> that the reeds blank out when you don't want them to"   
>
>  I used to torture chromatic harmonicas because I wanted them to bend like 
> Marine Bands. It never worked.  I had to learn what worked on a chromatic 
> and then emphasize that. Of course, trying to make the chromatic sound like 
> a marine band led me to a lot of happy accidents and i learned a lot. but 
> nothing really came together for me till I got used to "the way" of a 
> chromatic. 
>
> The responder reeds of a triple reed harmonica respond in a way that is 
> predictable when you spend time with the instrument. I think it is possible 
> to play it and learn to avoid the discord. Just out of curiosity, did you 
> listen to my youtube session with the lo D? 
>
> http://youtu.be/rzNHv2qMfg8 
>
> I think of it as an example of moving in the direction of extended bluesy 
> expression - not perfect, but I do eliminate most of the worst 
> combinations. 
>
>  If you play mostly single note runs in the top two octaves and work your 
> reflexes so you are finessing the blow bends in the top octave and draw 
> bends in the middle octave, and you have the first octave set up like a 
> normal blues harp, then you have a lot of great new options.... 
>
> And you can hit the top octave draw bends with wild abandon with not fear 
> of responder reeds kicking in.... 
>
> I think that refinements in reed set-up and playing style will make triple 
> reed harps a great new way to extend the possibilities of the harmonica. 
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
>
>   
> W -  "This is a problem with the Sub 30. It is also a problem with 
> versions built on the Auto Valve comb. I know because Joe Filisko built one 
> in 1992 and sent it to me (I gave it to Steve Baker, and haven't seen it 
> since). 
>   
> It is not a problem with the XB-40 due to Rick Epping's brilliant comb 
> design, which directs air in such a way that the responder reeds cannot 
> make inappropriate noises. 
>   
> However, the inner duct work in Rick's design makes the harmonica bulkier 
> than a standard diatonic." 
>  ----------------------------------- 
>
> R - I also built a lot of 4 reed type harps starting in 1984, and for some 
> reason never messed with the triple reed idea till just recently. I just 
> had some very strong ideas that limited my experiments - I hated wind 
> savers, for example, so I wanted to make my rigs work without them. Turned 
> out to be an engineering nightmare to have one way valves in the 
> mouthpiece.... 
>
> I also think Ricks XB 40 is brilliant, but I want the sound of reeds 
> sharing a common space, which is the essence of the sound of the standard 
> diatonic harmonica. It gives my breath direct access to the reeds, and I 
> can feel and hear the difference when I play.  It is this intimacy with the 
> reeds that gives me a sound that I cannot get any other way.  I am willing 
> to put up with the learning curve to get at a whole new world of sounds and 
> expression. The SUB 30 and other variations like my hybrid harps, are all 
> harps that have the reeds sharing a common space in each chamber. They are 
> experimental test planes to me. Let the wild rumpus begin! It is too late 
> to turn back now..... 
> ________________________________ 
>
>
> From: Paul Bowering <paul_b...@xxxxxxxxx <javascript:>> 
> To: "har...@xxxxxxxxxx <javascript:>" <har...@xxxxxxxxxx <javascript:>> 
> Sent: Friday, November 9, 2012 9:32 PM 
> Subject: Re:[Harp-L] Lo D Auto Valve Triple Reed Harmonica 
>
> Another inventive approach to employing enabler reeds. Richard, you made a 
> triple reed version. I'm wondering if a version that provides an 
> auxiliary/enabler reed for each main Blow and Draw reed would work: 
>   
> 1) Top plate regular Blow reed and enabler draw reed. 
> 2) Bottom plate regular Draw reed and enabler blow reed. 
> 3) Valve main Blow and Draw reeds to conserve air. 
> 4) Set enabler reeds with zero offset. 
>   
> Some folks have complained about the new SUB30's low octave. I don't (yet) 
> have one but it is my understanding that the Blows are okay because the 
> Draw reeds are valved. The problem comes with the Draws because too much 
> air lost through the additional enabler reed. With the proposed above both 
> Blow and Draw are valved yet each has a dedicated enabler reed allowing for 
> traditional  blues bends. Air would always hit one reed with standard 
> gapping and two more with zero offset. I think it would be reasonably 
> airtight. Not quite a regular diatonic sized harp but closer than the XB40. 
> Might you even be able to get rid of the horizontal divider of the 
> Auto-Valve comb? 
>
> --------------------------------- 
>
> R- Sounds like you have a great idea for an experiment - why don't you 
> build one?   
>
> i am totally into the triple reed thing for now, want to see where it can 
> go.  I am planning on trying out a 260 comb and re work it to get rid of 
> the divider, or cut it down a lot. 
> One of the reasons I like the triple reed idea is that it does cut down on 
> the number of ways responder reeds can "go off" if they are all in the same 
> chamber, like the SUB 30. 
>
> You describe the problems with the SUB 30 well. They can be minimized with 
> a good upgrading, but I learned a long time ago that long reeds are very 
> tricky to work for blow bends. thats why I taped off the extra reeds in my 
> SUB 30s in the first octave. I am a lot more interested in what I can do 
> with this combination than trying to finesse the reeds in the first octave. 
> People like Filip Jers and Brendan Powers are doing some great things with 
> the basic SUB 30  setup, however, so they prove you don't have to tape off 
> the first octave responder reeds. 
>
> Anyhow, thanks for your interest and ideas! 
>
> Richard Sleigh 
>
> P.O. Box 23 
> Boalsburg PA 16827 
>
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