RE: [Harp-L] Valving vs. Overblowing/Overdrawing

[JersiMuse <jersimuse@xxxxxxxxx>]

That is a very clear and precise answer !
In fact, I was not trying to give pros for overbending.
I don't think overbending is better than valving.
I just think it is different, which I guess is a fact :-)
I've chosen overbending just because it was already there, I could
experiment it, and I felt the valved harps had a too smooth sound for my
taste (which I am not still even sure of).

Conceptually, I agree with you : valves are conceptually easier to
understand.
I didn't even think about that point because when you perfectly know your
instrument, you don't think any more about the way it is done.
You just know where is the sound you try to reach.
Still, I'm totally convinced the valving disposition of notes is more
natural.

I don't think overnote bending is difficult.
In fact, the ideal position for an overblow is the exact same position as
the opposite bend.
Once you can do that, you can bend the overnote exactly the same way you
bend the drawing note.

You can bend a natural note on a diatonic harp.
I don't know how many comas one can get, I'll have to check, but I would say
enough to give the expressiveness you're talking about.

Last but not least, I still think at the end the most complicated is not to
create the notes, whatever technique you chose.
To my opinion the most complicated remains to play challenging and sensitive
musical licks, using a wide vocabulary, which means dealing with a lot of
different scales in all keys.
This is what I call playing chromatically (not just being able to play 38
notes), and this is a lifetime program compared to the technique chosen to
do the notes.


Regards,

Jerome
www.youtube.com/JersiMuse


-----Message d'origine-----
De : harp-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxx [mailto:harp-l-bounces@xxxxxxxxxx] De la part
de Michelle LeFree
Envoyé : lundi 18 avril 2011 19:31
À : harp-l@xxxxxxxxxx
Objet : Re: [Harp-L] Valving vs. Overblowing/Overdrawing

Elizabeth Hess asks:
> So, when I was making my Smo' Joe tuned harps, I learned how to valve
> draw-5 so that you can blow-bend 5 to get Eb (on a C harp).  It's 
> pretty easy.  And I got a PowerBender, and valved draw 2, 7, 9,and 10 
> to get the "in-between" notes on that harp.

I really like the way you "dive in" headfirst with harp stuff, Elizabeth!

> Does it work to valve the blow reeds at the top end of a Richter-tuned 
> harp to get Db and Ab (on a C harp)?

Here is PT Gazell's chart of the notes available with a half-valved
diatonic. It also includes tabs to play "Take Me Out To The Ball Game:"

http://www.ptgazell.com/uploads/Gazell_instructions_Final.pdf

As you will see when you look at the chart, Db is indeed available on hole 8
and Ab is available on hole 10.

And for a little more background, here is a short article on PT and
half-valving found on the Seydel website you might find useful:

http://www.seydel1847.de/WebRoot/Seydel/Shops/Seydel/Download/Spezialanferti
gungen/Halve-Valved-PT-SEYDEL.pdf

> Blow bending with valves seems easier to execute than overblowing and 
> overdrawing.

They are, without question, easier for me. I find overbending quite elusive
(but then I haven't tried very hard given the half-valving solution).

> Why does overblowing/overdrawing seem so much more prevalent?  Are 
> there cons to valving that I don't know about?

Jerome gave you a good overview, contrasting the features of the overbending
and half-valving approaches. He's one of the few people I've heard say that
overbends are easy. I say good on ya, Jerome! But overbends aren't for
everybody. They seem "unnatural" to me if for no other reason that overblows
and overdraws raise the pitch of of the "native" note where half-valved
bends lower them. This makes half-valved bends easier for me to
conceptualize and incorporate into my playing because all my bends lower the
tone.

One thing I might add to the "Jersimuse's" evaluation is that half-valved
bends give you a wide range of "bent" tones. That's the challenge, learning
to isolate the specific "missing" notes you need to hit spot-on if
chromaticity is your goal. I'm told that overbent notes are difficult "pop"
and that once you hit one it is difficult to "bend" 
them to get that terrific expressive ability of the "natural" bends that
draws many of us to the instrument. Folks get caught up in the discussion of
the two techniques for playing chromatically. But there is a secondary
advantage to using a half-valved diatonic that is often overlooked. That
wide range of available bent half-valved tones often gets lost in the
discussion. On first blush this wide range seems a problem in that you do
need to isolate specific notes in the continuum of available tones to play
chromatically. But to me, this new-found range of notes is a great friend.
The ability to bend those half-valved notes extends that artistic expression
to our music we are so used to applying on the "natural" bends -- to all the
"unbendable" notes. That alone doubles the options available to you in your
playing. To be quite honest, I use that extended expression for feeling in a
tune more than I try to be disciplined enough to "get chromatic" on my
half-valved harps. 
Half-valved diatonics are just a gas to play! You don't lose any of the
notes and bends you are used to; you just gain a wide palette of additional
expression and, if you want to practice enough to control this palette you
can play chromatically. What's not to like? It may be interesting to know
that Brendan Power has half-valved all of his diatonics for years. Ask him
why and he'll tell you the same thing.

As to why so many harpers are drawn to overbending, I have my opinions. 
I think it is a mixture of overbending being a "trend" and the human
tendency to want to "keep up with the Joneses." Between Jerome's response
and my own you should have a pretty good picture of the ins and outs of
half-valving versus overbending. There are no secrets and "there ain't no
such thing as a free lunch" in playing a diatonic harmonica chromatically.
Either way takes a lot of discipline and dedication to do it well. I have no
doubt that whichever method you settle on you will do well.

>   Is it
> "cheating" to use the easier technique for getting those notes?

Nah!

> Supposing I wanted to use valves*until*  I got good enough to 
> overblow/ overdraw as if it were "just another bend", can you overblow 
> a chamber that has a valve on it?  Is there any reason not to just 
> valve everything relevant on all my harps?

You have to choke the "normal" reed to get an overbend as they take place on
the reed opposite the choked one. In other words, with a 6-blow OB, the
6-blow reed is choked to get the 6-draw reed to sound the OB note. So,
overbends are two-reed bends. The valves in a half-valved diatonic keep the
"opposite" reed from sounding and isolate the target reed for a single reed
bend (same as bending with a chromatic harmonica). As an example, if you
play 6b, the 6d reed is shut off and you bend the 6b reed with a single-reed
bend. Upshot: you can't overbend a half-valved diatonic. But I would ask,
why would you want to?  ;^) One thing, valves are easy to remove and
half-valving a diatonic is completely non-destructive. Remove the valves and
you have your old diatonic back.

> I found a hammer.  Everything looks like a nail at the moment.
> Except I have this nagging feeling that I*ought*   to know better.
> What am I missing?
>
> Elizabeth

Elizabeth, you should now have a pretty good picture of the two techniques.
I'd advise you to take one of your duplicate-keyed harps and half-valve it
yourself. You'll see the possibilities in minutes. Then learn to overblow
6b. You'll soon know which method is easier for you and which is more
pleasing to your ear. Then do your usual thing and attack it with vigor!
8^)

And let us know what you find.

Michelle