Re: Re: [Harp-L] Tuning



     Upon receiving your email, I rechecked Pat Missin's "Tuning a 
Harmonica" description http://www.patmissin.com/tunings/tun8.html.  
I see he uses tuning tests which, when met, yield no beating.  This 
is unlike piano-tuning using tuning tests that succeed at certain, 
countable beat frequencies.  Perhaps the difference is that the 
vibration of two reeds can be sustained for as long as one's breath 
(or other pressure source) holds out, whereas vibrations of strings 
(in a piano) die more quickly after being struck.  Still, my experience 
is that it is easier, and certainly quicker, to tell the difference 
between 4 and 5 beats per second, for instance, than it is 
between 0 and 1 per second. If drummers ever want a second 
career, they could consider piano tuning.
     I have not seen a harmonica tuning description based on 
countable beating, so I'll continue talking about the piano 
situation.  Perhaps an enterprising harmonica technician 
will share a harp version.  The selection of tuning tests
on harmonica would be greatly increased if you had a
tuning device that could provide positive pressure to one
reed while negative pressure to another -- I've not seen one
like that but it could be built -- but probably best is to see
if usable, piano-tech-like tuning tests can be found for a 
diatonic using just blowing and drawing.  I'll leave that
invention to someone else.
     For resources on piano tuning beat tests and overall
strategy for piano tuning, it is really hard to beat the
Piano Tuner's Guild, the Kansas City, Kan.-based organization
with over 4,000 registered members, many of them musicians, and
with chapters throughot the U.S. The website is www.ptg.org.
     It is also hard to beat Google searches of that website using the 
"site:ptg.org" keyword.  For instance, here's one I just tried that
gives a treasure trove of results while weeding out some
that are more esoteric:

site:ptg.org   beats   -false   -"single string" -unison

This yields, among other things, conversion charts,
a source for a tone generator to generate your own beats
http://www.nch.com.au/tonegen/index.html
sites with .wav files of beats and tuning tests, and a forum
entry with advice for novices on  where to start and, after one's 
ear for beats becomes stronger, where to go from there,
http://www.ptg.org/pipermail/pianotech/2005-August/176775.html  
     I must stop now.  Hope this gives those interested a place to start.
-John T




======= At 2008-06-25, 01:41:42 you wrote: =======

>Sounds like you know more than me John. So when you are tuning intervals other than octaves & unisons, what do you listen for? I always tune fifths so there are no beats, and thirds and sixths, well  I just tune them till they sound 'alright' to my ears. I suspect sometimes that different graduations of tuned thirds etc. sound 'alright' to my ears depending on my mood, what I've just been playing, listening to etc.
>If I tune 5ths/4ths right around the cycle thus: C F Bb E B Ab Db Gb B E A D G ; where does this place things, theoretically? Will the G B D F sound like a G dominant 7th is supposed to sound?
>Yeah, I know, I should do it & figure it out for myself, like everything else; but what's the technica/theoretical answer?
>Thanks for the info so far.
>RD
>
>>>> "john" <jjthaden@xxxxxxxxx> 25/06/2008 15:56 >>>
>Piano tuners use their ears to gauge the speed of the beating of two strings vibrated by striking two keys
>at the sime time while blocking all but one string associated with each key with rubber chocks.
>Two keys are sounded that will produce an interval which, when properly tuned, beats at a rate that is countable,
>and tuners train by listening to recordings of various beat rates.  There are scores of useful test intervals
>known to piano tuners, applicable to various purposes on the piano.  The 19th is a popular interval, for instance; 
>the octave certainly is not, because success in tuning it yields zero beating (or a slow roll in the case
>where octave-stretching is needed) and it is not easy, and certainly not quick, to tell the difference between 
>zero beats and a slow roll, or to compare the rates of two slow rolls. Sometimes it is not the absolute beat rate 
>that is attended to, but rather, a gradual increase in beat rate as the same test interval is moved up the keyboard.
>While it is useful for a piano tuner to also have a good sense of pitch, luckily it is not essential, since an occupa-
>tional hazard of long-term piano tuning is deafness: strings are best struck quite hard (as hard as they would
>ever be played), to make sure that hard play will not detune them and this is done while the tuner must reach into
>the piano turn the tuning peg with a hammer.  
>     Tuning a harmonica by ear, e.g., to just intonation, is also best done by selecting intervals other than octaves and
>unisons, where beats are very slow or absent.
>
>John Thaden
>
>======= At 2008-06-24, 18:26:20 you wrote: =======
>>About tuning.
>>Most "pro" piano or harp tuners use their "ear"...
>>OK
>>They might use a tuning fork or an electronic tuner as a "guide"
>>But honestly, USE YOUR EAR!
>>If you have an ability in music you will KNOW when things are out of  tune.
>>If not, send your harps to a harp tec, to tune them.
>>John Walden 
>>London, England.
>>
>>
>>
>>   
>>_______________________________________________
>>Harp-L is sponsored by SPAH, http://www.spah.org 
>>Harp-L@xxxxxxxxxx 
>>http://harp-l.org/mailman/listinfo/harp-l 
>
>= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>			
>
>Best regards.				 
>john
>jjthaden@xxxxxxxxx 
>2008-06-25
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>Harp-L is sponsored by SPAH, http://www.spah.org 
>Harp-L@xxxxxxxxxx 
>http://harp-l.org/mailman/listinfo/harp-l

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
			

Best regards.				 
john
jjthaden@xxxxxxxxx
2008-06-25





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