Re: [Harp-L] Modes, was 3rd Position Tunes

[Richard Hunter <turtlehill@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

I'll start by noting what a relief it is to be able to talk about stuff
like this without everybody (including me) going berserk.  This list has
certainly become a very nice place to visit. 

Jp Pagan wrote:
<granted, however, you must agree that an A minor
<scale, an A blues scale, the A Ionian mode, the A
<Diminished scale... they are all in the key of A. if
<you play all of them on a D harmonica you are in
<second position, hence my assertion that WHICH scale
<you are playing (blues, diminished, bebop, etc) isn't
<what determines the position you are in, it is the key
<(of that scale, if you will) relative to the key of
<the harmonica. 

In other words, it's not the type of scale, it's the root of the scale
relative to the key of the harp that matters in determining position. 
Could be. 

> 
>> The only reason players use different positions is
so they can use the
>> scale of a given harp in a different way -- i.e. to
play that harp in a
>> different key, using a mode of the scale built into
the harp.

<that makes it sound vaguely like saying that harp
<players choose their position to fit the mode they are
<playing. i don't think mean that, do you?

Actually, I mean something very much like that, even if the players
involved don't think that way.  If I decide that "House of the Rising
Sun" fits a C harp played in A minor better than a G harp played in A
minor (because I like the F natural on the C harp better than the F# on
the G harp), I'm making a decision about the mode, whether I know it or
not.   

>> Whether or not you bend or overblow, on the
>> diatonic harmonica you generally start with a scale
based on one of >>the notes of a single 7-note scale --
the scale that's built into the
>> diatonic harp you just picked up.  That's a mode, by
definition. 

<well, Richard, i know you know a great deal about
<music, but that goes against every definition of a
<mode i've ever heard. just because you start on one
<note of the scale built into a harp doesn't mean
<you're in a mode because then literally everything you
<play on a harmonica (or any other instrument for that
<matter, they all have the same notes) would be mode.
<every scale starts on some note of what could be
<considered a 7 note scale. a mode is restricted to the
<notes of a diatonic scale. at least, that's my
<understanding of how it's defined and how it's been
<defined since the Greeks.

It's true that a mode is restricted to the notes of a particular
diatonic scale.  What makes harmonica different from many other
instruments in this regard is that many other instruments, like guitar,
piano, saxophone, vibraphone, etc., etc. are inherently chromatic, not
diatonic. Yes, I know that bending and overblowing changes that.  I also
know that Bill Evans claimed to be able to "bend" notes on the piano
(don't ask me how).  But out of the box, a diatonic harp is -- you
guessed it -- diatonic, hence inherently modal in construction, just
like my strumstick, or a 3-string dulcimer, or a pennywhistle, or a
bagpipe.

> > another (common) example is the G blues scale: if
i
> > play G blues on a C harmonica, it's second
position
> > but i'm not playing in a mode.
> 
> It's second position, AND it's a Mixolydian mode,
which is what you get
> when you play a C major scale from G to G.  Using
bent or overblown
> notes in this situation doesn't change the basic
fact that second
> position puts you in a Mixolydian mode.  

<again, that goes against everything i've ever read
<about modes. modes are very specific collections of
<notes. the blues scale is not a mode, it has most of
<the same notes as the mixolydian mode, but if you
<played them side by side you'd quickly note the
<difference between one and the other (not the least of
<which is that the blues scale has a minor third -and a
<major third depending on how you choose to play it -
<and the mixolydian has only a major third. that's a
<significant tonal difference).

You might argue the above according to a very strict definition of modes
and modal playing.  However, using an occasional note outside the mode
doesn't mean the player is not thinking or playing modally.  Miles
Davis's solo on "So What" from "Kind of Blue" is generally regarded as a
masterpiece of modal playing, and most of the notes he plays are found
in either the D or Eb Dorian modes, depending on whether he's playing
over a D minor or Eb minor chord at the time.  But he certainly uses
notes outside those scales, for example at the end of the first 32 bars,
where he does a turnaround that uses an altered II-V progression leading
back to D minor. 

<i have to say, i'm really surprised by alot of what
<you've said here, Richard. it just flies in the face
<of all the (admittedly limited) music theory i know. i
<don't mean to disrespect you, but it sounds very wrong
<to me. 

Well, it's nice that we can disagree strongly and be so civil.  Final
comment: while modes and positions do not align exactly, it's a very
convenient way for players to think about the instrument.

regards, Richard Hunter