[Harp-L] first flat/ long
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- Subject: [Harp-L] first flat/ long
- From: Michael Rubin <rubinmichael@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 12:28:08 -0800 (PST)
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Gary writes:
"Calling 12th position "first flat" works for me--no matter what key you
are
in, the "first flat" of that key is introduced--I discovered long ago
that
you flat the seven and sharp the four to change keys along the wheel.
So if
you are on a G harp, the "first flat" is the seven--the same note the
manufacturer sharped in order to play the G major scale--and that would
be
the seventh degree of the scale, F.
I sincerely hope this makes sense to someone."
Sorry Gary, that doesn't make sense to me.
12th position, commonly called first flat position on a G harmonica is the key of C.
On a C harmonica, it is F.
Perhaps you intended to say "so if you are on an C harp" but mistakenly said G harp because people often play in the key of G on a C harp.
To find the name of the first flat or 12th position on any harp, you would need to go to the 4th note of the major scale of whatever harp you have. For example if you had an Eb harp, you would learn the Eb major scale: Eb F G Ab Bb C D Eb. The fourth note is Ab. Ab is the first flat position of an Eb harp.
Another way to do it is to count 5 notes higher. For example, if you own a C harp, count 5 notes up from C:
C C# D D# E F
ZERO 1 2 3 4 5
It is important to remember there are no black keys in between E and F and also B and C.
Therefore the notes available are
C C# D D# E F F# G G# A A# B or
C Db D Eb E F Gb G Ab A Bb B
I am further confused by Gary's post.
When you say "going around the wheel" do you mean the circle of fifths?
If so, your understanding of "flat the seven and sharp the four" does not make sense to me.
Consider the C major scale:
C D E F G A B C
The fifth note is G.
Consider the G major scale:
G A B C D E F# G
Perhaps you mean that F is the fourth note in the key of C. When you go up a fifth to the key of G, commonly thought of as moving clockwise in the circle of fifths, you sharp the fourth note in the C major scale to F#, but then it is no longer the fourth note, it is the seventh.
There is no flatting of the seventh note as you go up a fifth.
Perhaps you are referring to going up a fourth, commonly thought of as moving counterclockwise in the circle of fifths, otherwise named the circle of fourths.
Consider the C major scale:
C D E F G A B C
The fourth note is F.
Consider the F major scale:
F G A Bb C D E F
Perhaps you mean that as you go up a fourth, the seventh note of the C scale is flatted, appearing now as the fourth note in the F scale.
There is no sharping of the fourth in this style.
I think you do not mean: "you flat the seven AND sharp the four"
I think you mean:
You EITHER sharp the fourth note of the current scale, then play that scale starting on the FIFTH note of the current scale to get the new scale OR you flat the seventh note of of the current scale, then play that scale starting on the FOURTH note of the current scale to get the new scale.
This would be correct however I have another method for understanding the circle of fifths.
First, it is important to understand the main goals in understanding the circle of fifths.
Number one, the circle of fifths is an easy way to be able to find the names of the notes in any major scale. It also helps in memorization of the scales. For a harmonica player, it explains how positions were numbered.
The first scale in the circle of fifths is C. The notes in the C major scale are C D E F G A B
C. There are ZERO sharps or flats in the key of C.
If you have a C harp, this is first position.
The fifth note in the C major scale is G.
The second scale in the circle of fifths is G. The notes are G A B C D E F# G. There is ONE sharp in this scale. (zero plus 1 is 1) The new sharp is F#, which is the SEVENTH note in the scale:
G A B C D E F# G
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
If you have a C harp, G is second position. If you have a G harp, this is first position.
The fifth note in the D major scale is D.
The third scale in the circle of fifths is D. The notes are D E F# G A B C # D. There are TWO sharps in this scale (1 plus 1 is 2) We RETAINED the F# note that we picked up in the G scale. I often compare it to travelling the world. We bought an F# in Manhattan, we'll bring it with us to Rome. The new sharp is C#, which is the SEVENTH note in the scale.
D E F# G A B C# D
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
If you have a C harp, D is third position. If you have a G harp, this is second position. If you have a D harp, this is first position.
Everytime you move up to the next scale by starting with the fifth note in the current scale, you will retain the sharps and add a new sharp on the seventh note.
C D E F G A B C
G A B C D E F# G
D E F# G A B C# D
A B C# D E F# G# A
E F# G# A B C# D# E
B C# D# E F# G# A# B
F# G# A# B C# D# E# F#
C# D# E# F# G#
A# B# C#
You may ask what is E# and B#. Let's save that for another post.
Notice that each scale has one more sharp than the last:
C zero sharps
G 1sharps
D 2 sharps
A 3 sharps
E 4 sharps
B 5 sharps
F# 6 sharps (I only count the first and last note , both F#'s, as one note)
C# 7 sharps
The fifth scale of C# is G#. Most people refer to it as Ab. The scale of Ab is
Ab Bb C Db Eb F G Ab
Now comes to weird theory. This explains how the circle of fifths continues to work in the same method, but does so in a way that is so convoluted that no one uses it:
The Ab scale actually continues in the circle of fifth tradition as having one more sharp than the last scale. So, in reality, Ab has 8 sharps. Consider the meaning on the word "sharp"as it pertains to scales. It means "one note higher than the note before it" C# is one note higher than C.
Ab has another name, G#.
Bb can be A#
C can be B#
Db can be C#
Eb can be D#
F can be E#
G can be F# # (pronounced F double sharped or F sharped sharped)
See? 8 sharps. F, the last scale is the circle of fifths can be thought of as having 12 sharps.
However, no one talks about it in that language except to mess with you.
At this point, it becomes easier to go counterclockwise from scale C.
This is also called the circle of fourths.
The first scale in the circle of fourths is C.
C D E F G A B C No flats!
F is the fourth note. The F scale is F G A Bb C D E F. ONE flat (zero plus 1 is 1). The new flat is on the FOURTH note of the new scale.
If you have a C harp, this is 12th position because it is the 12 scale from C on a C harp when moving clockwise in the circle of fifths. Levy and others term this position First flat because this is the first scale to have a flat note as one goes counterclockwise from C. Using Levy's approach, we should call 2nd position "1st sharp" but we don't. Language is a trip.
The fourth note in F is Bb. The scale is Bb C D Eb F G A Bb. TWO flats. The new scale retains the flat found in the F scale (Bb) and adds a new flat (Eb) in the fourth note.
C D E F G A B C
F G A BbC D E F
BbC D EbF G A Bb
EbF G AbBbC D Eb
Ab BbC Db Eb F G Ab
The next scale would be Db, but we already have that as the C# scale.
Here is the Circle of fifths going clockwise:
C G D A E B F# C# Ab Eb Bb F
If your harp is C, C is first position, G is 2nd position, D is third position, A fourth, etc.
If your harp is B, B is 1st pos, F# is 2nd pos, C# is third,etc.
Here is the circle of fourths going counterclockwise otherwise named the circle of fourths:
C F Bb Eb Ab C# F# B E A D G C
If you have a C harp, F is first flat position, Bb is second flat position, G is twelfth flat position.
If you have a B harp, E is first flat position, A is second flat, etc.
Please forgive me for any typos.
OKAY!
Michael Rubin
Michaelrubinharmonica.com
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