Re: Minors and manners

[Bruce Steinberg <bruces@xxxxxxx>]

        From: ah567@xxxxxxxxxxx (George W. Miklas)
        Subject: Re: Minors and manners
        
        Dear harp-l, (Specifically, Bruce)
        
                                <...>
        There is no problem Bruce.  My intent is to be specific when
        discussing harmonic termonology.  As in the English language,
        the smallest of typographical errors can change the message.
        I am resonably sure that typographical errors have even changed 
        history.  I will use your question below to specifically 
        address this in a friendly manner this time.
        
Thank you, George.  First, I appreciate that this dialogue can
hopefully be concluded civilly (and in lower case. :)

Moreover, however, I appreciate the fact that you acknowledge
that communication errors can change both messages and history,
because if you hold errors in ~reading~ as equally culpable for
communication breakdowns as errors of ~expression~, I trust
you'll agree that's what clearly appears to have happened here.
Let's cut to the chase...
         
                                <...>
        Bruce, in your original post, you did not specify that your 
        C Major chord had a seventh.  Nothing is to imply a seventh
        when you see "C Major."  "C Major" is either a triad, or a 
        four-note chord with the root doubled (generally an octave above).
        In my previous response to your post, I only reacted to what I
        read.  Let's go on.
        
George, in my "original post" in this thread, I didn't even
specify any particular chord by scale-tone;  nowhere did I
refer to "C Major," nor any other specific chord.

I fully agree with you that "nothing is to imply a seventh when
you see `C Major.'"  However, I don't see how anyone could have
been painfully clearer that the generic "Major" chords to which I
(or more accurately, John Mehegan) was referring "had a seventh"
in them.

In responding to Winslow's comment that it was okay to explain
a minor scale "to curious beginners" in terms of its differences
from its tonic major (without first attempting to explain key
signatures or modes), I said...

        It is with some trepedation that I venture into this turbulent
        thread (and all flames to /dev/null -- please! :), but I'd just
        like to further add that reference to major scales in explaining
        "other" scales/modes/qualities/etc isn't just for beginners.
        
        No less an "advanced" authority than John Mehegan in his
        excellent "Tonal and Rhythmic Principles" (Amsco) defines
        "altered scale-tone seventh chords" -- i.e., major, ~as well as~
        dominant, minor, half-diminished, and diminished -- in direct
        reference to ~each other~.
        
        In explaining a conversion chart (from one "quality" to another),
        he notes:  
        
        "To alter a Major chord to a Dominant -- flat the seventh;
         To alter a Major chord to a Minor -- flat the third and flat the
        seventh;
                         <...etc. deleted...>

I don't know how much clearer one could be that the "Major" (and
"Minor," and "Dominant," and "Diminished") chords being referred
to here all "had a seventh" in them.

Believe me, George, "altered scale-tone seventh chords" isn't a
term I find myself going around using casually in mixed company
everyday. :)  I suspect for most folks it would simply go in one
ear and out the other -- as it clearly did here, even for you. 

But that's what I said -- before you eagerly jumped with all
fours on the subsequent references to "Major" and "Minor" chords
as though they simply represented triads.  (Trust me, I'm pretty
much clear on that kookie sevenless triad concept. :)

                                <...>
        It is all in the terminology Bruce.  There is a standard definition
        to scales (major and minor), then there is a "hacker" way of 
        explaining it.  I can't stand a half-assed hacker to explain
        music theory in vague terms.  This is not a flame toward anyone,
        anywhere, nor referencing any posts on this list.  It is a 
        feeling toward inept theoretician.
        
You said it, brother.  Let's go on.  B*